Rex Hohlbein 0:01

This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics, drug use, and strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

Rick Raynolds 0:12

Rodney one night, he's standing in this room packed with homeless people. And he's got this slip in his hand, which told me Oh, he's kind of place to go tonight, you know? Anyway, Ronnie smiled at me and I think, oh, he goes, Pastor Rick and I beautiful. I got Ronnie. Yes, you're beautiful. Knowing full well that everybody in the room was gonna snicker and I thought it was done, you know? And he goes, then hugged me.

Unknown Speaker 0:37

So I come up next and I kind of sidle up to be next to him and give him a buddy hug around one shoulder and he comes leans down over because he's like, six, six year old, his face poking into my face, and he kisses me on the cheek and off he goes, right. Everybody's like, ah,

Unknown Speaker 0:55

like patting myself on the back thinking this was really a God moment right here, you know?

Unknown Speaker 1:02

Later, I gotta fight. Rick, who's being ugly in that situation. You know, this is not right. I should not feel that way that I need to keep Ronnie at arm's length. God doesn't love people like that. He loves people fully.

Unknown Speaker 1:18

If you live in Seattle, I don't need to tell you that homelessness has become extremely visible. We see folks struggling in our parks, on the sidewalks at freeway off ramps and more shelter is being sought wherever there is covered from the rain. abandoned buildings, roof overhangs overpasses, and bridges are home to those without basic needs being met. With approximately 40,000 people experiencing homelessness in King County, and 15,000 and Seattle, numbers that are growing each year, it can feel like the community is losing its ability to even know how to address the issue, and in turn, losing hope. We are constantly being reminded of the negative from media coverage, right down to dinner table conversations. The focus is overwhelmingly centered on what is not working. But What is less known or less visible to the house community are the positives, such as the multitude of services provided to those struggling to be clear, there is not nearly enough being done. But it is important to know that a lot is being done. There are a great number of people, organizations and governmental agencies doing smart and heart centered work every single day to meet the needs of those experiencing homelessness. The truth is, Seattle is not dying, far from it. Rather, it is trying to adjust to what has become a humanitarian crisis in this city. We are in the process of getting our feet back under US centering ourselves, so that we can know how to respond. And in that response, each of us has a choice. Do we step away and throw our hands up? Or do we step closer and lend a hand? How we decide is based a great deal on the information influencing us how we see the issue and the voices we choose to hear. Today we're talking with Reverend Rick Reynolds, he has spent most of his life stepping closer, getting to know those struggling for nearly 40 years, he worked at the nonprofit operation Nightwatch most of that time as the executive director engaging in direct action for those in need. Here's my conversation with Pastor Rick, you know, I want to explain first before we jump into kind of this back and forth conversation is that the point of view Nomi now is not just to hear what someone's views are, but to actually go back further and understand a little bit about them so that we might get a sense of why they have these views now at what How old are you 70 You said I'll be 70 this month. So So I would start by asking like who was Rick when he was five years old? Like some of your earliest memories and where did you grow up and just Okay, so Well, you know, I was grew up in lily white. Edmonds, Woodway, Washington. So my dad was a school principal my mom was pretty much stay at home. So anyway, a very religious family. When you say very religious family, tell me a little bit about like, what does that mean to you? That meant

Unknown Speaker 4:39

Sunday school and church every Sunday, my parents were all in on helping out.

Unknown Speaker 4:46

And then Sunday night, church service again and then Wednesday night during the school year there'd be activities for kids. So it was it was like, really religious but I think my my parents had

Unknown Speaker 5:00

I had a social conscience. They weren't like, you know, when you think about religious people, sometimes you think about evangelicals that don't put it together with, you know, how they how they behave towards others. And my parents were very kindly disposed towards everybody and my dad grew up urban poor. He was his, his dad was a WPA worker in the Depression. And my mom came from rural Idaho. But she was very much interested in what was going on in the world. And that's why she didn't stay in Idaho. She was asking me to get out of they wanted a bigger room, she wanted that bigger room. I remember something that happened. When I was in grade school, there was a local community club, I won't name it, because I'm sure they changed their policy. But there was one African American family in the community. At that time, it was a doctor, a black doctor. And they applied to be members of this community club, which was basically just a pool here. And they were denied membership in this community club. And I don't know what the adult reasons were at the time, but I remember my dad saying he would never join that community club because of that denial, which was very, you know, I think, progressive for the time, but I also wondered if we would have probably not joined it either way, because my dad was also very cheap.

Unknown Speaker 6:39

He was one of those Depression era babies straightening out the nails after he pulled them, you know, so it can realism. Yeah. But also consistent with kind of your family values, looking for what was just?

Unknown Speaker 6:51

Yeah. Do you think that came from studying their religion? Or do you think it came from somewhere deeper inside of them? That's a bit. I know, that's a big question. Because you can ask that question about a lot of people who who are religious, and might not follow those values and vice versa, right? People that are not religious, but have you can read Scripture a lot of different ways.

Unknown Speaker 7:14

And I think my parents, they're Methodists, right. So they believe that reason is a part of how we understand what God's doing in the world, right. And I was really at a very young age, interested in what was going on with the civil rights movement, I think it was about third or fourth grade.

Unknown Speaker 7:37

A buddy of mine in the neighborhood, and I decided to make a newspaper, it was all how to make money, right? We had two issues. We'd sit there and watch the news. And then we like, try to dumb it down to three lines and type it on my mom's antique royal manual typewriter with, you know, 10 pages of carbon paper underneath it. But I remember just watching the civil rights movement and trying to get that, that down, you know, into a few lines and writing about whatever was current and watching on the news, people screaming it schoolgirls, you know, and that really, profoundly affected me.

Unknown Speaker 8:19

I grew up in just an incredibly loving environment, you know, seeing

Unknown Speaker 8:26

that visual sight of hatred happening, it just

Unknown Speaker 8:32

breaks me to think about, you know, how can there be that kind of hate? You know, it's it's irrational, it's horrible. How do you answer that question for yourself? Like, like, when you think about that hatred? Like what, like, you know, do you? Do you have a place to put all that? No, I don't hang on to it. I have to

Unknown Speaker 8:54

push it away. Because I don't think I don't think hanging onto it or putting it someplace is helpful.

Unknown Speaker 9:01

love overcomes hatred. Right? I find great comfort in that.

Unknown Speaker 9:10

And it hatred doesn't have the final say of who we are as human beings. People ask Margaret Mead, the great nth anthropologist, what sign of human civilization, you know, what determines what's human. And when you've, you're on an archeological dig, what what tells you that this is a human habitation? And she says, If I find Sorry,

Unknown Speaker 9:38

I'm a I'm a crier.

Unknown Speaker 9:41

If if she finds a a healed femur,

Unknown Speaker 9:47

then she knows

Unknown Speaker 9:50

they took care of each other. That's right.

Unknown Speaker 9:53

That's all that matters to me. How can we take care of each other? How can we do a better job of taking care of each other?

Unknown Speaker 10:00

You know, instead of being so concerned about whether I'm going to survive or not, and thinking that if I survive, you know that I'm going to survive at the expense of another human. You know, that's how we kind of orient ourselves is there's got to be winners and losers. Right? And it's not that way. Yeah. As opposed to a rising tide where we all are, we all win.

Unknown Speaker 10:23

It feels like just listening. Alright, to this short bit that you, you were pretty influenced by your parents, as far as how you move through the world. And, and so structured your life, my mom especially was good about I mean, of course at the time,

Unknown Speaker 10:41

didn't really necessarily appreciate it. But she would like drag us around to Oh, go visit people in a nursing home or stop by and see somebody that's sick, or do some other kind of charitable tasks. I was shocked when she said we weren't going to have the usual Thanksgiving, I think I was about 12 or 13.

Unknown Speaker 11:04

And she made arrangements for us to come down to what was then called the Millionaire Club uplift Northwest now. And we went down there on Thanksgiving Day, and I rolled up napkins and handed them to indigence coming through the line for a Thanksgiving meal at a millionaire's club.

Unknown Speaker 11:26

And it's like, I don't know why she did that. I think she was trying to introduce the idea that there was something more than us watching football and sitting around the house. You know, I think it can go both ways. Right? It could be that I could have said, Oh, I don't want anything to do with this. Or here's another world. Isn't this interesting, you know, and I think that's the way I was good for the beginning. Was these are, this is a different life than I've ever experienced. I like it. Yeah. And also, I think there's truth in the fact that we, we do get good at what we do a lot of like, if we do something, yeah, quite a bit, we end up getting good at it. And maybe your mother was beginning that practice of reaching out to others and doing it over and over so that you get good at it. Well, and then my, my first job out of college was kind of very much parallel with my future jobs. I, when Lori and I got married, a friend of ours invited us to go with a small group of young adults from

Unknown Speaker 12:32

a church to say, you know, to do like a gospel sing along in a nursing home. And this was like a huge inner city nursing home. And it had people that had been released from Western State Hospital, people that were turned out from Eastern State Hospital in Spokane area. And then also, it was on the pipeline from Skid road. So people that were living in the flop houses downtown at that time, who could no longer take care of themselves, sometimes from age, sometimes from alcohol, sometimes from mental health, or a combination of those three things. And so it wasn't, you know, a nursing home with little ladies knitting and painting. You know, it was it was hardcore, mentally ill people, people with wet brain, skid road types, and then the little ladies, it was just an amazing milieu. So I was so intrigued with this population of people at this nursing home where I was volunteering on Sunday morning for an hour, just playing guitar and singing old gospel hymns, and then somebody would give a five minute sermon, you know, and that was it. And sometimes one of the residents was stand up and sing a solo for us. It was hilarious, you know, and we'd have to remind them that pistol packing Mama is not appropriate for church.

Unknown Speaker 14:00

Anyway, so I quit my job, my college job, which had been at Sears, I started working at the nursing home that I was volunteering at. They hired me it was like a weird thing. I quit my job at Sears. And three weeks later, I was working at the dream job. It was like, This is why I left Sears. Yeah. Did you know Did you have a path at that point? Like you're at Sears, you quit? You go to the nursing home. But are you still moving towards that direction? At that point? The nursing home because of the connection with skid road was contiguous with Nightwatch Yeah, I mean, I couldn't see far enough ahead to see anything related to

Unknown Speaker 14:43

Nightwatch because I wasn't clergy in at the time. Nightwatch was basically clergy going out on the street. Well, I was interested in it. I knew about it but I wasn't clergy and that no intention in a million years of, you know, going to

Unknown Speaker 15:00

Seminary in good grief pastoring at a church for 12 years. So that just was beyond me. But

Unknown Speaker 15:08

you know, you look back over it and you go, yeah, that was contiguous right. Stepping Stones. Yep. So So you basically you're just interested in helping people at that point. Oh, with your social. Yeah. So what's what's the there's a moment then of a leap that happens for you, where you decide you are going to become

Unknown Speaker 15:29

clergy, you're going to go into seminary school? Yeah, the church that I was attending at the time, they decided to hire an Associate Minister. And I made the jump to decide to apply, which I didn't, I didn't get the job, which was, you know, like, disappointing at the time. But the guy that they hired didn't last very long, you know. And so I applied for the second round a year and a half later. And by this time, then I started taking seminary classes, graduate level seminary classes. Yeah, so the, the church hired me, and immediately, I went out and signed up with Operation Nightwatch to be one of the st ministers. So that was the fall of 1981. And when did they start the outreach? Nightwatch? Yeah, when an AR Nightwatch, started in 1967, and it was just a group of clergy, taking turns volunteering on the street, every night of the of the year, you know, they cover every night somehow, you know, so I took I took one or two nights, and, and the task was to just go out on the street be present, you know, and so the way I was trained, and things have changed a lot, but there were a lot of these low dive bars around downtown Seattle. And norm Reagan's who was the original Nightwatch, paid director, we were founded by Reverend bud, palm Berg, but norm Reagan's trained me. You just went from bar to bar to bar and you hang out for an hour, see what happens, you know, and people would talk to you like, What the hell are you doing here? You'd be wearing cleric collar? And the standard Nightwatch answer at that time was, Well, we haven't seen you in church lately. So now we're coming to you.

Unknown Speaker 17:27

So yeah, so I go to all these dive bars, which was a great experience for 2627 years old. Yeah. But, uh, but those experiences, also come back to those places are gone now. You know, Nightwatch maintained kind of a little list, which I just kicked myself all the time. I wish I'd held on to it. You know, it's like a list of like, 125 little hole in the wall drinking establishments in downtown Seattle. They've all been displaced or upgraded to swanky, you know, and these were places where poor people that lived downtown at the time could find some company, you know, was was that outreach successful?

Unknown Speaker 18:13

I don't, I think yes. And no, the yes is, I think a lot of clergy got educated about real life. And I think that impact, it's hard to measure, but I think it's real, I think I know definitely from my own work. It made a huge difference. And

Unknown Speaker 18:32

but, ya know, you'd run into somebody in crisis. Okay. So let's say, I got a call one night from desk clerk at at a downtown hotel saying, hey, there's two kids here that need a room, but I can't rent to him because they're both minors, his brother and sister, can you come talk to him? And so I went over like it was 130 in the morning when I got there. And they were in the lobby. And the story they gave was completely believable, but still fantastic. And that was, our parents were gone. And so we took the car down to Portland to visit friends. And while we were down there, we blew up the engine. And so they put us on the bus to Seattle, but we didn't get here in time to get a bus to Maple Valley where we live. So they weren't homeless, but they were stuck. And their parents were still gone. So I, I said, Okay, well, I'll run you go home, you know, well, it was like three o'clock in the morning or so when I got them to their house. I got home but like for, I can't imagine what but like was thinking, yeah, I gotta say, I love how you answered the question. You know, was it successful did it did it, accomplish it? Because you, you answered it in a way that I believe is true for all outreach, and that is the assumption is that we're talking about, was it successful for the people that you were meeting like the person sitting on that bar?

Unknown Speaker 20:00

Still, but you answered it instead, that it informed you that you actually grew from it. And I think that's a, I think that's a standard result from people reaching out and doing things eat, you have in mind impacting people around you for good, right when you go out and do something like that, but I got way more out of it than they did. I mean, it changed me. And it continues to change me as I reflect on my life and continue to engage with the world. You know, it's not like, you retire and you're suddenly angry. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 20:38

I don't do what I was doing. But I'm still involved with homeless people are mentally ill people are hungry people, you know.

Unknown Speaker 20:48

So that once you let's pick up where we where you were, which is that you started to volunteer at night watch. Yeah. So my church hired me initially halftime and then I worked full time. And I'd been there 12 years, I just was felt ready for change. I love the church, but it was, it's a strain being pastor of a smaller congregation. You know, it all falls on you eventually, you know. So I called norm Reagan's, the guy that had trained me for Nightwatch, to say, hey, can we get together and talk and I told him what was going on. And he said, You should come have my job. I literally got, I got hired,

Unknown Speaker 21:31

you know, one interview, and I was in, I started like that spring. And the flaw in the system that they had, then was that you don't get to know people, you don't get to know the systems, you don't get to know the individuals on the street, you know, going out once a month is not enough. And so it was kind of the whole program of Nightwatch just sort of limping along with all these volunteers, not really knowing what they were doing out there. And so that was one of the really gratifying things after I came to Nightwatch was to be able to have the resources to hire ministers that did nothing but that full time, you know, because they could they knew how to respond and everything, Rick, in the in the beginning of Nightwatch. And with with the presence of going into into bars and striking up conversations with folks, that wasn't that wasn't relegated to just people that were suffering through homelessness. Oh, no, not at all. Those were those were just right. People live in life that find themselves in a bar, and then through story and exchange, get to know each other. You can Joe Curtis was the D Deacon for the homeless at St. James Cathedral. And he told a story. I really liked of him being in a bar on Pike, pine area, you know, and this little lady in the corner, you know, and you go, what are you doing here? You seem out of place? And she goes, Do you see that lady that building across the street on this fourth floor? That's by unit, I just don't want to be alone at night, you know, but she wasn't homeless, you know, it's just the bar was a place to gather to be with other people. And so when did was it under your watch that Nightwatch morphed more towards addressing the issue of homelessness? Well, more more, but it was already pointed that direction. So when I came to Nightwatch as director then see i waltzed in there in 1994, and there were still people in a bar that were not sure that we should be doing food and shelter. You know, that seemed really impossible. And in many ways, it was impossible, but we did it anyway. So, so we grew into what was right in front of us. I mean, that was what the need was and I I remember you know, Norm saying we're not getting into the bars enough I go norm what bars would you go in, they're closing down as fast as these low income places are being you know, shut down. The low income housing was being sold to redeveloped and upgraded make it impossible for poor people. So anyway, yeah, I think we just went with what the perceived need of the street was right. But there was at some point, the first feed right, like there was a Okay, so what when I came to Nightwatch they were feeding people. They've been feeding people since the 80s. But the food was like instant cup of soups, you know, and they had no kitchen they had a crock pot when they got to that point. And then when I came they had maybe two crock pots and then we had four crock pots. They were doing these, you know, simple meals simple. I mean, like we're talking like, dumping all the Campbell's soup that you've got into one pot, you know, and heating it up and it was really, I thought this is dumb if we're going to do food

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Let's do it well, so I got signed up with Northwest harvest and food lifeline. And we eventually were able to get a kitchen that had like a residential size stove and, and could upgrade the food service. So that was you know, and then we started getting more and more volunteers. So we originally, you know, I think when I first started at night watch, maybe had 20 volunteers and 1.5 employees, and that was it. And how often were you was it once a week, you were giving food out every night, every night, every night, every single night. And so I was there during the daytime. So I would like at four o'clock, whatever I was doing, I would just stop and I'd start chopping up chicken carcasses for chicken soup, you know, and I it was the same menu every night. And we'd always have like, you know, groups that would come in with sandwiches, and it was kind of crazy. Yeah. And were you just like you you left being the pastor at a church for 12 years? Yeah. Now you're doing this direct outreach? Are you still mixing in all of your kind of spiritual? I mean, how is that morphing for you? Because it said, Well, okay, so I did a lot of speaking engagements in a year. You know, so I wasn't preaching, like on a Sunday morning very often, but I know you're still sharing that message. Yeah. So I go out and talk about I prefer to think of it as a universal spiritual truth, you know, scriptural, in part, but mostly life experience. This is what I see in what I've learned, you know, and my, this is kind of like my framing story for my whole time at Nightwatch was something that happened to me by first year on the job, but

Unknown Speaker 26:45

you know, there'd be these nights where we'd have like, 8090 people looking for shelter and not be able to get everybody in and we had characters that the shelters wouldn't serve anymore. And one of them was a guy named Ronnie, Ronnie was stereotypical, mentally ill alcoholic, really out of control. We couldn't get him inside because the shelters were calling the shelters to get in place and heats. They say don't send him here anymore. He's too disruptive. And so we he'd have to take a blanket and eat course, he wasn't very happy about it. But I talked to him very quietly, because I was, I wasn't going to yell at him. He was already yelling. deescalate escalation really works. You know, you parents out there, pay attention. And anyway, so Ronnie, one night, he's standing in this room packed with homeless people. And he's got the slip in his hand, which told me Oh, he's kind of place to go tonight. You know? Anyway, Ronnie is smiling at me. And I think Oh, because

Unknown Speaker 27:46

Pastor Rick and I beautiful. I go, Ronnie. Yes, you're beautiful.

Unknown Speaker 27:52

Knowing full well that everybody in the room was gonna snicker. And

Unknown Speaker 27:59

I thought it was done, you know? And he goes, then hugged me.

Unknown Speaker 28:03

So I come up next I kind of sidle up to be next to him and give him a buddy hug around one shoulder. And he comes leans down over me because he's like, six, six year, leans down over me is face poking into my face.

Unknown Speaker 28:19

In the clinch, you know, and he kisses me on the cheek, and off he goes, right? Everybody's like, ah,

Unknown Speaker 28:26

but I'm like patting myself on the back thinking this was really a God moment right here, you know. And later, I got a lot, you know, that little questioning? self doubt is like, Rick, who's being ugly in that situation, you know, like, I got it, you know, this is not right, I should not feel that way that I need to keep Ronnie at arm's length. God doesn't love people like that. He loves people fully, really from the heart embracing us, you know. So then that's the challenge myself is to get over mine my own professional sense of self and just love people. That's the That's the challenge. But then I realized, it's not just a challenge for directors of homeless programs, right? We all have people that are difficult to love in our life. There's no getting around it. And

Unknown Speaker 29:21

it doesn't matter if you love the people that are like you, and that are easy to love. Show me somebody that can love people that are difficult people, you know, and that is we all can think of a face or a name of somebody that we have a hard time loving.

Unknown Speaker 29:41

But it doesn't matter if you love everybody else. You got to love that person. That's the That's the challenge. And it's not just, you know, learning how to love some homeless guy, but sometimes it's a family member neighbor or somebody. So that changed my whole approach. You know? Yeah, that's beautiful.

Unknown Speaker 30:00

Yeah, that's in its, you can feel the truth on that. Yeah, you know, there's a similar or paralleling thought of, when you're, when you're, well be well beyond your means you have you have you have everything you need, and you're living fat and happy. And then you do something for somebody and you feel good about yourself. It's pretty easy to be compassionate and nice when you're having everything met in your life. Right? You know, yeah, the challenges is, the challenge is to, you know, if you if you have the right perspective, we're all playing with house money, right? So what's going to happen? You know, I mean, where's the risk, I want to be able to, I want to be able to take the risk of falling flat on my face and maybe suffering alongside of people, you know, ideally, I mean, I don't know if I get the guts to do it or not. But

Unknown Speaker 30:56

okay, I don't know if this is this conversation. But I gotta say, I think for me, the way you just articulated that is at the very

Unknown Speaker 31:05

kind of the center nut of the question that we ask ourselves in life, like, am I going to act on that little voice inside of me that knows what I'm supposed to be doing? Or am I going to listen to the other voice, which is, you know, a combination of FOMO, and fear, and just all the things that well, if I live, if I really let this all go, I'm gonna go into a freefall. And then I'm just, I'm just gonna miss it all. And my one shot. I think, if we could all learn to act on what you just said, I think the world would take care of itself. I think we got to stay reality based at some level.

Unknown Speaker 31:47

I mean, okay, so the story that comes to mind is from the gospel, at the risk of sounding too religious here, okay, go for it. The rich dude comes to Jesus and says, you know, what must I do to be okay, right. And Jesus said, well, love God, love your neighbor, that shall write. And the rich dad says, I've been doing that. And Jesus says, okay, then give away everything you've got to the poor, and come follow me. Right? At that point, the rich man turns away, he's sad, because he's got too much money. He's too, you know, he wants to be self reliant. He wants to be, you know, there's no level of trust in the unknowns. And I think, you know, when are you going to ever feel secure in this life? You could have millions of dollars in the bank, and you're still restless, who was the most unsettled person in the Old Testament?

Unknown Speaker 32:50

It was Pharaoh. Isn't that ironic? We don't even know his name. But we know the to the names of the two midwives that were supposed to kill the babies we know their names, but pharaohs, pharaohs, uncertain if he's going to be okay or not, he doesn't want to let the people go. He wants to demand more bricks. You know, he's, he's not sure he's gonna be okay. Isn't that ironic? It is ironic. But you just bit earlier you had said to me, let's keep a little reality in it. Right. Yeah. Like so. Like, I want to follow back up on that. Like, what is the reality? Because I think that is the he turned away. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think, Okay, this is, all right. This might all get edited out, but that's okay. You know, recovering Catholic, right. Yeah. And got my dose of nuns and Jesuits. Right, basically up till college. Yeah. So.

Unknown Speaker 33:47

And I have a very hard time not seeing hypocrisy, like, like, I want to say to myself, look, if I really believe then, tough luck. Yeah, you know, we are. It's like,

Unknown Speaker 34:01

I don't want to be judgmental here. But saying this, because it's more complicated than just saying this, but it's the fish symbol on the back of the Mercedes. I think, I think how, how can we hold those two things at the same time when we see people suffering, and really, really suffering? And, you know, we both have seen that from the homeless community, and yet, hold on to so many

Unknown Speaker 34:27

riches.

Unknown Speaker 34:29

While while and we know that, that the money that we hold on to in banks could make a profound difference, and we make the choice and we and we turn away, I really wrestle with that. It's a good thing to wrestle with, and it's a family discussion that we have is like, do we have enough? I don't know. I mean, I've worked sub Seattle wages my whole life and,

Unknown Speaker 34:53

you know, I went for five or six years when Nightwatch didn't put into the retirement fund and that kind of

Unknown Speaker 35:00

stuff. So here's how we compromise we have homeless people that come and stay with us. Yeah, got a guy in my basement has been with us 13 years now. Yeah, you know, and that's been it's been a blessing for him. And it's been a blessing for us because now he's been able to pay rent. You know? So I don't know. I, it's a struggle. You know, here's how I mean, when I read the Old Testament, especially, there's a lot of weight put on ethical living. That's apart from piety. God says, What do I care about?

Unknown Speaker 35:37

Bulls and lambs? I don't care about sacrifice, I don't care about fasting. What I want to see is are you paying your workers? You know, those are the foundational issues that underlie homelessness, right? In in economic injustice. And don't Don't be coming to church and worshipping when you have withheld wages from your workers. Right. And shared opportunity with people. Yeah, you know, I think there's a lot of people that reject the church, and maybe rightly so I'll say, in favor of doing what's most important. And

Unknown Speaker 36:19

I struggle with the same things. But you know, I think part of part of the good thing is, that's why we need each other different the differences, right? If you can get along with people who think the same way you do all the time. What does that what credit is there, but learn how to struggle through the these heart issues with people that don't agree with you. You know, you still belong to each other, you still gotta learn.

Unknown Speaker 36:45

Yeah. Okay, so let's let's maybe a little bit of time, on the power of relationship, because I feel like that is something that you've spent your you know, your life's work,

Unknown Speaker 37:00

putting together, have there been people you've met that have influenced you with profound that, you know, profoundly that you can think of to share about Have there been people in the street that you've met that have, you know, you're you mentioned, the experience of getting the hug, giving the hug, right, like, and the reason I'm asking that is because I firmly believe the answer for addressing homelessness really has to come from the community. Of course, there's lots of mitigating circumstances, such as land prices, and mental health and drug rehab, and all of these things that apply pressure, but until, until we all kind of wake up to the suffering that people are experiencing on the street.

Unknown Speaker 37:42

It doesn't feel like a needle is gonna move, it's just it just keeps sliding in the direction it's going. Well, I mean, I've had a lot of interactions with homeless people that have inspired me and given me insight into my myself and into the world. In general, you know, I got I fell into this thing of taking pizzas to a homeless camp. So at this homeless camp, you know, there's people in their dogs and their stories, just amazing how folks can end up in a place. You know, there's, there's as many different ways to become homeless as a person could imagine. But anyway, this 30 year old and his 60 year old mother, were living together in this camp, and they fled domestic violence situation, and all they had was their dog. And the dog was like, you know, a two pound fluffy thing cute as could be. And I had gotten to know them in the next week, when I came into the camp. One of the other campers said, Oh, I don't remember the guy's name. Brian. Brian's dog got killed a lot.

Unknown Speaker 38:50

And the whole camp was in grief. They were on a church property. There was the couldn't throw it in the garbage. They couldn't bury it there. And the person goes, it's $150 for the vet to take care of it. Well, my first reaction was really grim. It was like, they're trying to sucker me, right. I don't have money for this. I don't have money at night, watch out. And I got my own money in my pocket. But 150 bucks is kind of steep. Well, then they told me, we've already collected 50 from the campers. Wow. So I said, Let me think about it for a day. So I came home, I throw it up on Facebook. Here's the situation I told the story. And a friend of mine immediately texted me on my cell phone saying, I'll, I'll kick in $50 to and I thought, okay, if they kick in 50 the camp's got 50 I'll match that $50 I can afford. So I went to the back to the camp. The next day. We got the remains of the Dog in the tent wrapped up in plastic and we took it to the vet to

Unknown Speaker 40:00

for disposal, you know, there's kind of reflecting on my own hard heartedness. And we're like, literally like on the sidewalk outside the veterinary office. And we're just like, fall into each other's arms weeping because it's like, who hasn't lost any buddy, you know, this dog wasn't just about a pet being killed, it was more than that it was their whole entire life, giving up their house moving into a tent city, no furniture, no other possessions. The dog was the only link with their past. It was heartbreaking. And mutually she felt then in that moment, and

Unknown Speaker 40:43

I think, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 40:45

it's about loss for everybody part of the community is

Unknown Speaker 40:50

broken, if one part suffers, we all suffer. It seems to be that's fair, right? It's a shared suffering. But, you know, these moments that I have, there's also these notes of joy that happen, you know, like, a guy in line at Nightwatch. And I'm just like, out there kind of doing my my maitre d thing, you know, talking to people and find out what's going on. And he introduced himself to me and told me, I've washed out of nine recovery programs. And he said to me that night, something I've never forgotten past, Rick, I've determined that never again in my life while I own a lawn mower.

Unknown Speaker 41:37

random thing, but I think there was a point to it, and that is, life is more than what we hold own. Right. It's an IT WAS AN in his way of saying that it was his way of acknowledging that he could be all right, even without a lot more, right.

Unknown Speaker 41:57

The material letting go of the material, and you know, I said, you know, well, while if you're, if you're willing to

Unknown Speaker 42:04

give it another try, let's move you into the building, you know, we got a room open. So he came, he showed up the next day, which is extraordinary too. I mean, that always happen.

Unknown Speaker 42:15

And I gave him an application, one page form and he filled it out and he listed

Unknown Speaker 42:22

a local page, Jim McDermott,

Unknown Speaker 42:26

as one of his references. So I thought, well, I got to do diligence. So I called Jim McDermott's office. They say, Oh, yeah, well, he's a great guy, you should help him he's been coming around trying to get our help, but getting him inside, it's like, wow, what do you know, you know, this guy is a is a doorway drinker. Like the most toxic drunk I've ever met, he moved into the building. In three months, he totally wrecked his unit.

Unknown Speaker 42:59

No bodily function control, I find him passed out with a towel around himself in the hallway. I remember the looking into his face as the as the medics hauled him out yet again, to take him to the hospital. And he,

Unknown Speaker 43:15

I looked at his face, and I thought, I am never going to see this man alive again. And he called me a week later, he said, Rick, I cracked a vertebrae in my back. And they told me I could have surgery or I could go into traction for 90 for 30 days. So I've decided to go get traction. So and I go up there with Father camis. Episcopal priest, I used to go hang with just say, How's it going? Well, you know,

Unknown Speaker 43:45

he cracked a joke and I, and we talked to him about his situation. I told him what was going on, you're not gonna get kicked out. You know, we're gonna keep you. And you mind if I say a prayer for you? And the next week, he goes, guess what, I prayed myself, okay. Next week after that. He's just like a different guy. fourth week, he gets out, he comes back to Nightwatch. He's like, I don't know why I was doing that to myself. Stone Cold, sober the rest of his life. He he had a moment of clarity. And, and he went uh, so he was became active with the Coast Guard Auxiliary. He had keys to the West Seattle Lighthouse he gave to her as he was volunteering for Woodland Park Zoo. He got accepted to chart that tiger cubs when they were newly hatched and

Unknown Speaker 44:43

started doing home delivery food for the food bank in Ballard, you know, and they eventually hired him and he moved into his own apartment moved out or Nightwatch moved into his own apartment. And that's remarkable. And those stories I want to believe are waiting for every person that's outside and that's the thing

Unknown Speaker 45:00

As you see a resurrection, you think I want more of that. And nobody is beyond hope. That's the other thing. Yeah. That's what Walt taught me. Is there nobody because he was as bad off as I've ever seen anybody? Yeah, I'll tell you something else, too. Walt had such a huge debt with the IRS, a goat while he was making like 100 grand a year on as a rancher down in the southwest, prior prior to this, right, and lost it all because of drought and tax debt. It's like, you don't look at some guy sleeping in a doorway in downtown Seattle, I'd say I bet this guy was really wealthy at some point, you know? Yeah, I want to dive a little deeper into that, because there's something about what you just shared, that says within me if everybody could feel either the transformation or the humanity of each person is going through something on the street, and that's 40,000 in King County and 15,000 in Seattle, right? It's a lot of people, if we could know that, like, really know that, that each person has their story. Like, does that move us? Would we? I mean, is that important to know that? Yeah, I think the little, the little stories that make up the big story are what's most important, I don't know what to do with those kinds of numbers, the numbers themselves are just overwhelming. I can't do anything about 15,000 people or 10,000 people, or whatever the number is, but I can maybe do something with one guy in front of me, you know, or keep somebody from falling off the edge even better, you know, I gotta tell you, recovery, my recovery story. So I'm not an alcoholic. I know, they all say that. But I decided that I that I would better be a better helper if I went through a 12 step program. So I went out and got myself a sponsor. And he helped me work the steps, we went through the big book together, and I worked the steps over a course of about two years of meeting with him. And then I started, you know, like sponsoring people and

Unknown Speaker 47:13

helping helping my friends suffering. But one of my sponsee said, Rick, why don't you go to meetings, they always tell us to go to meetings, and you've don't go to meetings. They, I don't know, why not. So I started going to meetings with one of my sponsors, he's, you know, it's pretty great. You know, it's like, wow, this is really pretty awesome. It's like,

Unknown Speaker 47:35

it's hard to describe, but there's just a sense of community in a lot of the 12 step groups, and they all struggle with the kinds of things that we've talked about related to religion or spirituality, but there's no getting around it. AAA is a method of spiritual recovery. Now I go to meetings, as well as having gone through the big book and sponsoring people. I think it's pretty great. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 48:04

I feel like I'm a better human being for having going to AAA even though I don't need need it from an AAA point of view. I think it's made me a more complete person. Yeah. It's, it's you said it's a spiritual recovery. And that's the first time I've heard my dad went to AAA and, and I've known lots of folks that have gone to a it's the first time and I know it's faith or higher power based. Yeah. But it's the first time I've actually heard somebody say it's a spiritual recovery. And that resonates with me, I think, the bankruptcy of spirituality leads to all these problems we have in our life. Yeah. In some ways, I wish my a group was a little more like my church and my churches.

Unknown Speaker 48:46

You know, because it's really hard to stand up. In a context of an AAA group, the understanding is, we're all broken, we're all here for the same reason, and in a general way, you know, everybody's suffering from the same spiritual malaise that we all we're all too absorbed in ourselves and our own needs, desires and wants, we're in love with our own defects of characters, or sin or whatever you want to call it. Right? Can you connect that for me? Since you're on this thread, to then the issue of homelessness? Like, like, how does that inform also our attitudes towards addressing homelessness, and feeling compassion? And well, you could feel compassion, but then we don't really want to be troubled by it. We don't. We don't make the sacrifice of trusting other people to you know that you're going to wreck the neighborhood by putting that homeless program here, building that low income housing or whatever it is that Seattle is famous for this right? We're generally super compassionate. But we're also pretty defensive of our own lifestyle. Right. The name

Unknown Speaker 50:00

years of nimbyism

Unknown Speaker 50:02

is it's breathtaking. I mean, I've heard things at these public meetings, you know, where a proposal has been put forward and asked to have public

Unknown Speaker 50:13

public comment, and it's like, fells very 1960s. You know, I have nothing against these people. But you know, fill in the blank, you know? And are you and do you think that's, I don't want put words in your mouth. But my brain is saying, when I hear you talk about spiritual fatigue, and all that, I think of that, like, we don't address these very human issues, because we're spiritually just either broken or exhausted. And if we were feeling it, like really feeling the vibe of our spirituality, we would actually address these issues in a way that would be more fruitful, or move us towards a solution that, you know, it's like that asking too much. I see, again, I can see both sides of every topic, right. One of the things I worry about is advocates that I've known and myself are sometimes not sensitive to the real concerns of a neighborhood, you know, now, it was something that I tried to bring to Nightwatch was, are called to be a good neighbors, not just to our homeless friends, we ought to be able to help them without being a threat, I mean, a real threat to the neighborhood. So how can we devise programmatic ways to still be actively doing good without consequently doing harm unintentionally doing harm? People? I think it's possible. If you listen and take seriously, I think, sometimes what happens is you get battle lines and more worry about winners and losers, and and then you want to say to the people trying to defend their safety in the neighborhood is being hard hearted or cold. But I totally agree with you. I mean, I think the way that I've talked about it before is you have a business or a neighborhood that are being impacted by a societal breakdown, right, being brought to bear on one person, right? Or one business. That's not fair. Yeah. Right. Like, we have to find a way to do no harm to both right and move the whole thing down the field, we have to work towards solutions, while not making it more difficult now, on another person or business, it was more more acutely focused when I was when Nightwatch was located in in Belltown, downtown and the neighborhood business association,

Unknown Speaker 52:38

you know, sort of kind of challenging me about helping people that were, you know, drinking and using, and I pointed out that Nightwatch had never served alcohol to anybody. It was the merchants that were doing that, you know, their own members, right? They didn't like hearing that. But we did like, as an experiment. Because they said, Well, why don't you breathalyze people? I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. So we got a breathalyzer. And we, for two nights in a row, breathalyzer people coming into Nightwatch for help, right? And it pretty much you know, there was like the maybe 10% that the needle goes by.

Unknown Speaker 53:20

Like the cartoons you know, the guy hit the sledgehammer and ding Yeah, maybe 10% I don't even know if it was that much. And then there was the guys that came in, and they'd blow and it would tick but it would not be anywhere close to Newbury unbraided. And I it's gently chide them, like you had you had a couple of beers after work. Yes, that's fine. You know, come on in. We welcomed everybody that night, you know, but over 50% of our clients had zero breathalyzers, now the business community was saying, oh, yeah, those guys are using drugs. They don't need any beer. But the this what the cops were saying was, if they're not drinking beer, they're probably not using either, you know, alcohol and drugs. You go hand in hand, and they go hand in hand. It's like, they get started, and then they keep going. Anyway, I was just interesting. And the guys that were making the needle fly over, they were some of the sweetest guys that we served. You know, they were never a problem for us. Now, that doesn't mean they weren't a problem. Then they read I don't know. But I saw plenty of college kids thrown up in the street, kicking the homeless guys in the doorways and peeing anywhere they felt like you know, after some nightclubs close yeah, so I mean, I

Unknown Speaker 54:47

it gets messy gets really messy. Yeah. But I do appreciate you saying that. We can't, we can't just get on our horse as activists and and be blind to

Unknown Speaker 55:00

The harm we're causing to the community in the process, it has to it has to be a conversation that moves everyone forward. Yeah. And, you know, I like would challenge the city about this sweeps, though, is that without us without a real option, you know what, because what we offer when we, if our only offer is shelter, what and services even what we're really offering is institutionalization. That's what we're offering, let's be real. And shelters are an institution. It's institutional living. And you'd think about other institutions and how human beings, how much they like it. The jails, hospitals, nursing homes, mental health facilities, school, none of these institutions are very user friendly, user friendly, but

Unknown Speaker 55:55

human being so do well, just to say we'd like our independence, everybody does. For every person that's not in a shelter, and you talk to them, you find out their personal, very real reason why they're not in a shelter, why they're willing to sleep under a bridge, right? The middle of the winter, right. And they, they didn't just do it because they enjoy suffering. No, right. There's a very real reason for them. Yeah. Sometimes they don't want government in their business. Where do they get that from? For crying out loud? You know, here's another way to ask the question you've got, you've got a best friend has no connection to homelessness, not doesn't really run across it in his life, and you're sitting down for dinner.

Unknown Speaker 56:37

How do you what do you share about the issue of homelessness with his person and with maybe a secret agenda of opening their heart to being involved more like what's Well, I mean, you know, important to know, I'd very likely have a third person there. That's homeless, you know. And I think there's no better remedy than, than looking into somebody's face and hearing their story, that it's the relational part, right? Again, I don't know. I mean, I'm not someone that can give you a cogent argument. That's going to sway you I can tell my stories I can, I can tell the stories of people I have known that are homeless that that have moved you that have moved me and I think there's I think there's common ground there even for people that maybe never would venture into my, my little world, but

Unknown Speaker 57:25

something they can take back to their Elks club and

Unknown Speaker 57:32

Seattle is a city of

Unknown Speaker 57:36

that's generous and

Unknown Speaker 57:40

kindly disposed toward social issues. But it's a little bit closed about religion, you know, it's like, what do they say the least church city in the United States are right up there anyway? Which is fine with me. Because I think we're just as spiritual in our own way. Right. But I think anybody that's resistant to anything along that line? Are you Are you willing? Are you at least willing to leave the door open, right? And the same kind of approach to life will serve us all well, is if we're willing to be open to people that are broken, maybe.

Unknown Speaker 58:20

Although, you know, I've run into a lot of mentally ill addicts, living in houses, to fact, this is sorry, I go down these rabbit holes. I remember something happening in downtown Seattle, that was caused by a person that lived in a house and I said, Pioneer Square would be so great if we can just get all these housed people out here.

Unknown Speaker 58:47

So true, people I've had the question I've had a lot is, aren't you afraid to talk to people that are homeless? And, and my my pet answer usually is I'm more afraid to talk to people inside houses. Gosh, you know, I mean, it I don't mean that against people inside I just mean it that where you live doesn't define who you are. Right? make you a good or bad person because you live inside or outside? That's absolutely true. I've never had I mean, I should say, rarely have felt threatened by homeless people directly, you know, you know, fear can keep us from doing a lot of the good stuff, right? That's the thing is, I'm not going to be afraid. And I haven't been afraid for most of my time. And I have a I have an explanation. Tell me if you think this is is is

Unknown Speaker 59:39

applies to you. But my experience has been that when you're authentically there for somebody, like really authentically, they're not for some right. Other purpose, but you're really there for them. Even if it's a tough moment for them. They see they see that in you and they don't take out their pain or their anger on you. There.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

They're really

Unknown Speaker 1:00:02

they understand that? Generally that's true. But an A, I'm thinking of my my friends, one of my street ministers, Paul, who was violently attacked a few months ago.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:17

There's always that random stranger violence that can happen, you know? And but the thing is, Where can I or outside? Yeah, where can you go in the world to be perfectly safe? There is no place, you know? Yeah. And I'm saying it to under the kind of the heading of the negative stereotype. Yeah, that sort of says, most of the public does see, those that are living homeless as dangerous and somebody to be afraid of dead. It's just not, it's just not the case. They're way more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators. Yeah, that's been my experience. You said something earlier, that really struck a chord with me that I thought is beautiful. And it's just the question, Are you willing? That's really powerful? Like it's not? It's just asked, he's not even asking, Are you going to do something? Yeah. Right. Are you willing? And then just being open to

Unknown Speaker 1:01:14

the possibility? If you're really open?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:19

The possibility will land in your lap? Yeah, that's how I think about how, how the universe, if you will, how that works. If you're willing, if you're willing, that that's the whole thing, you know, the political will? That's been a part of this whole thing, right? I think the individual will have the individual to stay open, tolerant, respectful, loving, and applying, you know, and that's where it gets tricky is how do you apply those things to a public policy level on serve the greater good? I don't know. But I mean, just chasing people around soda just doesn't seem to be helping anybody. The neighborhood doesn't feel any safer if they're all off to Utah street moved over to Third Avenue. What's the point of that? You know? Well, I actually believe I have a theory that says are actually doing greater harm, in the sense that they're just systematically radicalizing the city because they're basically saying, Hey, you group of 30 people who are struggling, we're going to now move you in front of this group of businesses, and then we're going to move in front of this group. And so really, they're just chasing this issue around the city. And, and upsetting evermore people that have been radicalized by it. Business owners and such. They don't just suddenly go back to being okay with the issue of homeruns. Yeah, they've been turned now. They're now they have a stand. Yeah. And yeah, the sweeping thing has to stop having seen the impact, because I'm friends with some of those RV

Unknown Speaker 1:02:57

residents, and how hard it is for them to stay organized on things like unemployment insurance and Social Security. And are they signed up for their medical stuff properly? And, you know, there's just no, are there tabs paid? And is the vehicle still Oh, and stuff happens? You know, there's like freelance vigilantes that come through and one guy

Unknown Speaker 1:03:27

claimed that he thinks that a vigilante poured

Unknown Speaker 1:03:33

diesel fuel into his fuel tank, you know, and they had to pump, you know, 80 gallons of fuel out of the fuel tank and being homeless as a full time job. It changes you to that's the weird thing. I think people don't realize once you're homeless, it takes a long, long time. And if you ever really get over it, you know, it's in the back ear. That uncertainty and uneasiness seeps down into your soul in a way it's hard to describe that touches on another thing that has astounded me in hearing people's stories is how complicated everybody's story is and I think and and, and you know, the quips back that people will scream out of a car window like get a job asshole or, or you know, stop being a lazy bum or it's crazy how complicated when you when you take the time as someone that's living inside can put their head on a pillow has a bury them in check, and you start to enter into the conversation you quickly realize Holy crap, this would I can't figure this out and I'm college educated and my life is super loving and happy and the cow broken. So the people are that are on the street, you know, they've lost family members, pets.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:56

Just the familiarity of surroundings. There's a

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

The thing, it's interesting, we think we should just be able to move right? In nursing home care, there's a whole study of thing, a thing called transfer trauma, where, you know, vulnerable seniors are moved from one nursing care facility to another or even within an institution, moving them from one room to another room, and how the incidence, the death rate goes up for people that move.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:31

were rooted in neighborhood, as human beings is how partly how we're wired, where we like having familiar spaces in places, and

Unknown Speaker 1:05:42

I didn't really understand this my first year on the job. You know, we had a problematic guy that we're trying to help out. And he was always picking fights. And

Unknown Speaker 1:05:53

he wanted to go back to New York City, and he said he could get there from LA. So we sent him to LA, on the bus, I think. And he came back two weeks later, I go, okay, so you agreed that you wouldn't come in here anymore? Yeah, I know, I can't come in tonight watch. Well, why are you still like hanging out on the corner? Right bias. It's as bad as if he was back here.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:18

And he said this by neighborhood. Yeah, he felt it felt safe there. You know, it hit me the other day, too. I have friends that are well off retired suburban type. And their son is been struggling with homelessness and addiction problems. And, you know, they got close to getting him into long term treatment program at us out of the city. But he had been living in a tent in the U district. And that kid had everything going for him. You know,

Unknown Speaker 1:06:55

he's one of those guys in the tent, lung 50th or 40/45. And

Unknown Speaker 1:07:01

I five, you know, and the powerful thing is, every single one of those people outside is one of those people to somebody else. Yeah, who's missing them? That's part of the reason people don't want to go home.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:18

Shame, right? Yep.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:21

my conversation with Pastor Rick went on for roughly three hours, not a surprise. To begin with. He's an extremely easy man to talk with, to be with. But more importantly, his lifetime of experiences. And insights come from having a front row seat in service to those in need. For those of you that don't know, Rick, or have him, he is one of those cornerstones in Seattle around advocacy for the homeless. In short, he's a big deal. Although he wouldn't tell you that or probably even own up to it. Sitting with Rick, I was hoping to extract some large pearl of wisdom in this constant search for solutions. Seattle finds itself in to hopefully hear some aha moment. instead. Rather than give advice, he beautifully invited us to just be willing, willing to be open, tolerant and loving, to not let fear keep us from doing the good stuff. As he says, in short, Rick is asking us to be in relationship with each other, especially with strangers, and those we're having difficulty with, and through it all, most importantly, to care for each other.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:39

You know, me now is produced, written and edited by Tomasz Biernacki and me Rex Holbein. We'd like to give a heartfelt thanks to Rick for taking the time to speak with us and share his beautiful positive message. You know, me now has a Facebook and Instagram page where you can join in on the conversation. We also have a website at eunomia now.com where you can see photos of Rick. We also have stories there of other folks we feel you should get to know. Thanks as always for listening