Rex Hohlbein 0:00

This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics and strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

Rebekah 0:11

Trauma is it's an old, it's a Greek word that means wound. Really, that's it's, it's how were we wounded? And how did we respond to those wounds that we received. I was one of those people who would look at people on the street and say what the hell's wrong with you, I had a shitty childhood, and I'm here scraping along. So you know, get your shit together. That hardness of heart comes from a place of lack of compassion for oneself. I think if we really scrape the surface of somebody that's not compassionate to someone else's pain will find that they're probably not compassionate to themselves.

Rex Hohlbein 0:53

When I was a kid growing up, nobody talked about mental illness, at least openly. That is, there were the hush talks about so and so's mom losing it and having to be committed to a psych ward, being taken away and put in a hospital somewhere, or a friend's uncle who went off the deep end, now getting help with his breakdown, whatever that meant. As a kid, it was always a mystery. Back then, if you or someone in your family was getting mental health help of any kind, nobody talked about it. It was purposefully kept quiet in a tight circle of family and close friends. There was a big stigma around saying you needed help. Today, thankfully, that is changing. Not only are there an increasing number of people seeking various forms of mental health help, just the idea of it is becoming comfortable and accepted. People are more open, they want to share and talk about what's going on in their life. It's commonplace to hear someone say, Hey, I gotta run, I've got to get to my therapy session. It does feel like we're living through a time where the stigma around mental illness is being dismantled. However, there is still a big hurdle in front of us. For those suffering with mental health issues. The available help is severely lacking. This is particularly and I'll say also painfully true for those struggling through homelessness. In a culture where we're still learning to understand and give bandwidth to those suffering on our streets. an added level of judgment is created when the house community sees folks living outside navigating their mental health condition with their life on full display, unable to be hidden behind a closed door. The negative stereotype which is centered on misunderstanding is fueled by the visible symptoms of mental illness. If we discuss the issue of trauma, just one piece of the larger mental health spectrum, we know that the vast majority of folks living chronically homeless have been traumatized. Either trauma brought them into homelessness, or living homelessness itself has brought trauma to them. That should alarm us. We're hoping that this episode will be part of an increasing awareness of bringing mental health help to those struggling through homelessness. We also hope that this conversation will provide useful and informative material for those looking to find ways to be in relationship with those living outside. Today, I'm very excited to welcome my dear friend Rebecca Demerol to this conversation. She wears many hats in her life, which I will add she does beautifully, bringing lived and studied expertise to the conversation. I'm gonna let her tell you about all of that about who she is. But first, I do want to share that I just finished her excellent book, titled nothing's for nothing. transformation through trauma. It is a collection of personal essays and reflections that I found to be profoundly insightful. I'm guessing you will, too. You can find a link to her book on our website. And with that, let's jump in and meet Rebecca. I'm actually really excited to

Rebekah 4:27

always say that, no, I

Rex Hohlbein 4:29

don't always say that. Well, I am always excited to write but I'm specifically very excited because I have this very high level of respect for you in the work that you do and and just you as a human means a lot to me to be able to have this conversation. So let's see where it goes.

Rebekah 4:44

Oh, well, likewise. So

Rex Hohlbein 4:47

I think maybe let's start by first can you just introduce yourself because I know you have a you have a you do a lot of things. And can you maybe just give a quick overview of who you are? Yeah.

Rebekah 4:58

Well, I'll start with what I do. So I'm an acupuncturist and clinical counselor. And I've been doing the clinical counselor work for over 20 years and acupuncture and Chinese medicine for the last 1516 years. I think, both working as a healer, professional, you know, healer in that regard in Chinese medicine, and the counseling, both those things are informed by the trauma that I went through as a kid. And that seems like a funny thing to say. But I, I think my my healing journey kind of led me to a place where I felt on solid enough ground and had gained enough insights that I wanted to share those with other people. The as I work with people all these years, I find that there's so much that I see in other people's journeys and struggles that I've either been through myself, or I'm still going through and healing. And so it's, it's kind of like, vicariously, I continue healing through helping other people. So So yeah, it

Rex Hohlbein 6:11

was gonna be my question, which seems obvious, right? But you're actually so often in life, we actually grow more when we're actually teaching or helping others. And yeah, I'm guessing that's true for your journey with regards to healing. Yeah,

Rebekah 6:24

it definitely feels that way. And, and the the people that that come to me, it just, it always just feels like a gift. Like, oh, you know, now this is being asked of me, now I have to draw deeper into myself to find ways to help that person. And I always feel that I'm on this parallel journey with people. And it's yeah, it's beautiful. It really, it really, really is. And it really helps me just continue to learn and grow.

Rex Hohlbein 6:55

It's the proverbial Win win, right? Like, you're helping people. And you're also helping yourself. Yeah, in the process. And

Rebekah 7:02

I'll share that with people too. Like, if I if I'm working with, I mean, you know, if somebody's coming to, you know, in a counseling kind of capacity, you don't want to be disclosing a bunch about yourself. But you know, if somebody if I'm touched by something that somebody is telling me or I can see their pain, I'll cry with them. Because that's just being a human. And in there, there's healing to to, to feel like, yeah, there's a vulnerable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:32

I've been thinking a lot about like, what do I want to talk with Rebecca about. And when I think about the issue of homelessness, and the disconnect that happens between the unhoused, and the housed, and my own feelings of, you know, the closer you come, the more you feel, the more you feel, the more you act, that there's the really the trick is to somehow get us to come closer. But that requires the ability to do so. Right. Like, you can't just push two people together. And I, and I wonder, like, if we could have a conversation about if someone says this living inside, for example, I really want to get involved, I really want to reach out and try to make a difference and be with those that are suffering through homelessness. What do they need to know? And so maybe we could talk a little bit about what do we need to know about the unhoused that are going through their own trauma? And then also on the other side, maybe the second half of the conversation can be about what does that journey look like for helping others that are going through trauma? And and what if they have their own trauma? What should they be doing?

Rebekah 8:37

Well, you know, that part of my history is growing up in a pretty traumatic, chaotic, violent household and leaving home when I was 13. And living on the streets and in and out of foster care and very sort of precarious lifestyle for all of my teen years, and even into my 20s Very unstable Lee housed. And so that also, you know, informs the, the work that I do and what I care about, and yeah, folks that are housed, that are wanting that are seeing, you know, first of all noticing and choosing to notice the suffering of folks that don't have a place to live and don't have clean clothes and don't have a bathroom and don't have any privacy and all of those things. And in the suffering that that we witnessed through people just trying to get through those times and using drugs and having engaging in dangerous behaviors and risk taking. If somebody notices that and it chooses to, you know, allow themselves to feel like oh yeah, this this touches my heart and and I might want to do something about I think right there is an amazing leap of faith. Because so many times, folks on the street are used to just feeling invisible. And I remember that feeling too, of just feeling invisible, and people walk by you, and they don't want to see the suffering. They don't want to feel, whatever that brings up for them. And so, yeah, the first step,

Rex Hohlbein 10:28

I want to stop and say, Thank you for actually backing up before that point that I kind of started, because you're absolutely right. That's a just getting to that place is a beautiful and amazing thing, right for a human being to just open themselves to that. So yeah, that's worth celebrating.

Rebekah 10:46

Yeah, something something's got a chip off the old, you know, covering around the heart to be able to say, oh, yeah, I see that I see you. You're a human being, you know, and there's different layers of letting it in. So and then I think it's really important to check in with oneself about and how do I feel? How do I feel being that close to somebody who I see you with that degree of suffering? You know, what, I feel more safe if I were in a certain kind of environment of a, you know, well lit Street, in the daytime versus at night, versus with a woman versus with a man? Are they sitting? are they standing? What position Am I in all of that I think is really good to take into consideration, so so that you're not stepping so far outside of your comfort zone, that you feel unsafe? And then And then yeah, like you always say, you know, just just engaging in some way, whether it's eye contact through saying hello, and just is there is there anything that I could do for you? You know, is there anything that you that you need? And and I think it's a really nice thing to engage for a house person to engage with a another group that may be able to give them more information in support and resources to to engage in in ways they're helpful.

Rex Hohlbein 12:13

Yeah. To keep assuring that feeling of safety? Yeah. Because I think we all operate better when we feel when we feel safe. Like we're in our zone.

Rebekah 12:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And there may be lots of good reasons for people to, you know, keep their distance. And because because they don't feel safe. And it could be all in their head. But it's also it could be old memories, it could be all kinds of stuff. So yeah, just respecting how you feel and how you feel in that moment. And then, and then just seeing if you can get the heart to be engaged with the mind. This is like we lately, people are talking about being dysregulated versus being regulated. And dysregulated. Like we maybe we see somebody on the street, and they're yelling and screaming, and their pants are half down. And they seem to be you know, on drugs and everything. Well, that's a extreme state of dysregulation, because the person doesn't know how to control anything. And if we think of regulation, it's when it's when we have a sense of things being in alignment, and that head, heart and gut all being able to sort of operate together that there was a yes, yes. And yes, in my head, heart and gut. And I know how I feel. And so I can engage in a way that feels authentic and also safe. Can

Rex Hohlbein 13:40

you talk a little bit about what trauma does to people? I mean, we're talking about trauma in lots of ways these days. Right? If you're listening for it, it's everywhere. But I think one of the things that happens for people that are housed and, and living in maybe much more structured lives, as opposed to the unstructured of living on the street, see something unfold, and they they immediately make judgments and pull back and all that fears, the negative stereotype rush in. But that's a human being that's actually having their life unfold right out there in public and a lot of stuff's going on. Because often because of trauma. Yeah. Can you give some insights into the types of things that person the barriers and the struggles that that person is probably experienced? Yeah. Or can be experienced? Yeah.

Rebekah 14:29

And that's so interesting that they're going through all that right out in the open, whereas we cannot go through all that, but we're inside our house. So it's not like we're just exposed to the world that they can judge us and say, you know, oh, God and live with Rebecca doing, you know, she's really, really seems to be dysregulated right. Yeah. So,

Rex Hohlbein 14:47

what a privilege that is. Exactly. Yeah.

Rebekah 14:51

And then And then, you know, when somebody's out in the open, you see, you know, everything just hanging out there. You know, like you say they can be judged and And they may very well be a sick person, definitely a dysregulated person, but not a bad person, because I don't actually believe that there's anything as a bad person. Yeah, I just I just don't I believe that everybody, everybody has worth and nobody and nothing is beyond redemption. That's, that's a core belief of mine. And you know, trauma trauma is it's an old, it's a Greek word that means wound. And so, really, that's, it's, it's how were we wounded? And how did we respond to those wounds that we received? And, you know, when we think of trauma, I think, these days, people think, well, you know, were they sexually abused as a child, and, you know, were they beaten, you know, all these kinds of things, not necessarily, those things that always wound us deeply, it could just be that a parent didn't pay attention to us in the way that we really needed as sensitive children. And so those wounds come from not just what happened, but it's how we responded to how we adapted to the pain, and we all have different abilities all have different abilities, and all have different sensitivities to. And so what we're seeing when we're seeing hurt people is people that are, have deep wounds that haven't been, that haven't been soothed. And that have maybe lost the ability or never had it model to them how to soothe themselves. And so they look, you know, we I have looked for soothing in, in other ways, you know, drugs in relationships, and, you know, whatever, whatever it took to, to sort of make me feel soothed,

Rex Hohlbein 16:56

yeah, I've heard this a number of times, and and I'd be curious to hear your responses that somebody that is out on the street, engaging in some activity, and a person might look at them and say, you know, why don't they just get a job? Or why don't they just get their shit together, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, that type of conversation. And if I say something like, well, we don't know what happened to that person, right? And maybe they, maybe they were physically abused. And I've, I've gotten this response so many times, it says, Well, I was physically abused, and I pulled myself up. And how do you respond to that? Well,

Rebekah 17:38

I'll start by saying that I was one of those people who would look at people in the street and say, What the hell's wrong with you, I had a shitty childhood, and I'm here, scraping along. So you know, get your shit together. That hardness of heart comes from a place of lack of compassion for oneself. I think if we really scrape the surface of somebody that's not compassionate to someone else's pain will find they're, they're probably not compassionate to themselves. So when I started learning how to be loving to myself, and, and sensitive to myself, I was much more able to be that way for other people. Going going back to that direct connection with the person that saying that and kind of looking, trying to uncover that belief and that hardness is maybe maybe the way to go. Yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 18:37

thank you for sharing that that actually really moved me forward. Just now. I really, I think that's a beautiful insight. And, and, and it's a window into all of our lives, right? Like, you know, if, if we're behaving in a certain way, because someone's irritating us, you know, maybe the first direction that we should look at is are in our own direction, and like, what do we have? Why is this upsetting me? Or why am I reacting this way? And what is it about myself? One of the things that we used to say at facing homelessness all the time was addressing homelessness has more to do with yourself, then the homeless? Oh, yeah. And it feels like what you just said, speaks into that pretty clearly.

Rebekah 19:19

It's this. It's the spiritual part, that that's kind of missing that self inquiry that, that looking back into was, what is it about me that's bothered by you? And why and why and where did that come from? And then when we start to kind of, you know, and it's always like a big ball as big not inside. So we'll just have to tease the threads apart a little bit and start to untangle that, that ball of that knot. And then we start to see oh, yeah, let me follow that thread back. Oh, that's that's where that came from. That's where that belief came from.

Rex Hohlbein 19:54

With that understanding, it feels difficult in those moments or situational moments when somebody says why Why don't they pick themselves up? And then you're the one hearing that you can't in that moment say, Well, that's because you don't love yourself. Right? It's such a nuanced, tender moment, and maybe one that can't be resolved in in that moment, right? Our

Rebekah 20:17

hardened stance doesn't help the situation. It's like I teach de escalation and conflict resolution. And, you know, to resolve a potential escalated situation or a conflict situation only takes one person to to de escalate something so that both sides don't have to deescalate just one side de escalates.

Rex Hohlbein 20:40

I'll share I had a similar experience running the Facebook page is when somebody would make a terrible comment. If that comment was met, with an equally aggressive comment back, it would just up it. And it was almost like hate needs hate to keep moving forward. Yeah. And if you meet it with something closer to love, that they might say one more time, something bad, but if it's met one more time with love or kindness or understanding, it's amazing how that you're absolutely right. How it dissipates? Yeah. What happens when someone's in the moment of their trauma? I think the the window gets smaller, right? Can you can you share a little bit for, for the for those listening, that might not have those experiences, what's what's going on, when someone's in the moment of not feeling safe.

Rebekah 21:32

When we don't feel safe, it's usually because we're locked in a time other than the present moment. Even if the present moment, you know, something actually unsafe as is happening. We just have to, we have to be sensitive. And I think most of most of the time, it's just giving space and giving privacy to somebody if they're having a really hard time. And then sometimes body language can tell us a lot to just just, you know, if somebody looks like, their head is down, and they're cowering, and I walked by them, and they look up at me, I'm gonna look at them to and say You okay, you know, but you know, if their body language is all spiky and and looks like they don't want anybody to be anywhere close to them, then I'll just kind of send them love for my from my heart as I'm walking by him. Yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 22:25

you know, one of the things I think is difficult for all of us, is, when someone's having an episode or really struggling, it's easier to look and say, okay, that person is struggling, I'm going to, I'm going to act in this beautiful, compassionate way. I find it much more difficult when someone's appearing to be completely normal. Maybe they're not even homeless, maybe they're in a home, right? And, but they got, they've got their own thing going on. And then they, and they say something that upsets us, we expect each other to be fully healthy, normal people. But that's not the case, right? Navigating the complexity of people that are outside or even people in your life, they're inside, it's your hunting back to the overarching discussion of trauma. Yeah, like, it's like, we're not just either traumatized or not traumatized, or some or some spectrum of, yeah,

Rebekah 23:20

well, and we need to take care of ourselves, like, all day long, you know, I do these trauma trainings, and self care, you know, trainings for social service agencies, and all different places. And, you know, people say, Well, I'm burnt out in my job, and, you know, I'm like, you know, just can't stand it anymore. And I come home, and I yell at my husband and kick the cat, and I don't want to, I just want to sit in front of the TV with some ice cream. And, you know, like that, and it's because throughout the day, all through our lives, we need to have that self awareness and self inquiry and, and keep breathing, keep taking care of ourselves so that we're able to respond in unhealthy engaged ways. Rather than coming from the fight or flight, you know, since I'm triggered, I'm going to guide you, I feel like I want to attack you or run from you, you know, or, or the, what they call the dorsal vagal response, which is just to kind of cower and hide under a blanket with a hug and das in front of the TV. Our home base, we would hope we would grow into is more of what is called the ventral vagal response when I'm talking about polyvagal theory here and and that's the ability to connect with one another on in real time. And that takes that takes some work. We have a lot we don't have a lot of good modeling of that from our political political figures or anywhere in the media. We really don't have a lot of modeling of authenticity and and good self care. And so So we need to cultivate that so that we're able to respond to one another in a compassionate, you know, just real and authentic ways.

Rex Hohlbein 25:11

Yeah. What I love about what you just said is, we tend to think about the moment as where the work has to be done, I've got to like, something happens. And then I say to myself, I need to be compassionate. I need to, I need to respond beautifully, or I need to respond lovingly. But what you're telling me is that, actually, we need to be doing the work all the time, so that we can create the bandwidth for when those moments Yeah, good show up. Yeah, that we're now we're, we're flexible and stretched enough? Because we've been practiced with it. Yeah.

Rebekah 25:39

Yeah. Just practicing it all the time. Yeah. Rather than, you know, go go go into this burnout phase of work. And then so I need a vacation, you know, you know, or I better do a self care workshop, or I don't have time for meditation, or, you know, I squeezed in some yoga, you know, on my lunch break and stuff. It's like, we, we need more than that, you know, society is squeezing us to a point where we've forgotten how to care for ourselves and forgotten how to engage with one another, and forgotten how to make the there'll be enough housing and support for people, though, that can't afford it. Even just basic needs, just basic needs, you know? Yeah, what a, what a crazy world. And so it comes back to that just that spiritual aspect of, of caring for ourselves, is how we care for one another.

Rex Hohlbein 26:32

I think there are things to Rebecca, that are not really part of the conversation and homelessness that I hear, right? Like you probably do, because you're in the middle of it. But the general conversation is still when we talk about homelessness, we talk about those people over there. Yeah. And we talk about like, how, how are we going to do a number of things, either to them or for them? Like, how are we going to fix them? How are we going to house them? How are we going to get them off drugs? The conversation typically doesn't involve in what is my part? And all that? Or how to how am I contributing? Or how can? How can my life actually move forward in a way that would be better for society? Yeah, I think we're missing that mark. And when it even is about what is my part, we, we tend to just ask, What can I do for them again, as opposed to what can I do for me? Like, how can I actually be how can I create that bandwidth that you were just talking about? So that I'm, you know, a more beautiful human being? To be in service to

Rebekah 27:34

and we need both those things? Right? We need help, how can I help? And what's going on in me, as I consider that, and what what is the special way that I can give and, and what changes in me as I give and what changes in me even as I consider to, to give and to open my heart more. So all of that is where we become altered. And then that alters the relationship, and that alters the relationships around us. And yeah, it just changes everything

Rex Hohlbein 28:07

it does. And also, I think you talked about this earlier, when we weren't recording, but talking about modeling, like how important that is like modeling good behavior, and, you know, people, people see the things that you're doing in life, and that affects them. I know it affects me. Right. So I think that's a powerful thing about this equation of how do we address homelessness is we try to healthfully healthfully model what that looks like.

Rebekah 28:37

And it's not always easy. And it's not always, it's not a linear process. either. I have my ups and downs, I have my times where I get really triggered by being around a certain individual at a certain time, you know, just, you know, it reminds me of things that have happened to me and on the street and in my youth and, and so then that tells me I need to look deeper inside and process that stuff. And and that's the gift. Yep. Actually is shining the light on it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's also the hard part too. Yeah. So yeah, the diamond doesn't get to be a diamond without some pressure, as they say. Right. So

Rex Hohlbein 29:23

how about you wrote a book? How about telling me about it? He did.

Rebekah 29:26

Yeah. Yeah. So it's called nothing's free, nothing. transformation through trauma. And it is a memoir. And it's just about everything that's happened to me thus far in life. Little anecdotal stories. So there's kind of three sections to it and just looking at kind of childhood and midlife and then later on, I dedicated it to my mum who left when I was three years old, and I didn't see gain till I was 12 years old. So a big part of my childhood, she was gone from my life. We had a really difficult relationship and did a lot of healing at the end. She passed away 10 years ago now, and

Rex Hohlbein 30:16

yeah, it's came out of the two of you talking for three years.

Rebekah 30:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, mom had a stroke when she was 85. And, and we still had this really, you know, terrible relationship, a lot of resentment from specially me, but um, you know, as a kid, I was homeless for all my teen years and, and mum was living in Vancouver where I grew up to, and, and at one point, my social worker was like, can't you go live with your mom, you know, we've had you in foster care and on the streets and everything like, can you so we tried that but Mum, I cramped her style. And so I was 15 at the time, and after about six weeks, she kicked me back out again. So, you know, I was I was just it was pretty perilous there on the streets and I had a lot of really, really tough and dangerous times. And so later on in life, you know, when I got on my feet and I was working as a paramedic for BC ambulance, you know, I had a lot of resentment towards mum and, and at the end, you know, having gone through a lot of a lot of work myself and brought mum to Victoria where I was living and had her in a extended care facility she she'd had a stroke and was paralyzed on half her body and, and she was being really cruel to me and I was just kind of visiting her daily and have having her be really abusive to me. She was very angry and and there was a lot a lot of pain, I could see the pain but I also had a lot of pain, anger myself and, and we just kind of we just kind of finished up by letting all that go. Yeah, I won't spoil it because he had to hear your story in the book. You read the book, basically, you hung in there, I hung in there with her and we found a way to get through it all and it's probably the most profound thing that's ever happened to me in my life is to to only carry love for her. And it's nothing to do with my thinking. My all my beliefs that I had about how she ruined my life and didn't love me and and never did love me. All that just disappeared. I have no explanation for it, except that it's grace. It's just was pure grace and, and I just have nothing but love for her.

Rex Hohlbein 32:37

I'm really happy for you is beautiful. Thank you What because I'm almost done with the book. But But yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of shit.

Rebekah 32:47

Well, it's a burden to carry resentment. It's a burden to carry a grudge. Yeah. So

Rex Hohlbein 32:54

for Yeah. Yeah. You think you're hurting the other person,

Rebekah 32:57

but you're hurting yourself? Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that and, and, you know, the book is full of all my hard won insights. So my Chinese medicine kind of perspective, so thrown that into I was blessed to have done some work with Dr. Gabor Ma Tei. He wrote the foreword for it. So just put a little plug in there for that. And, and, and he's become a good friend and, and a mentor and I, I certainly just he he's really helped me a lot to

Rex Hohlbein 33:29

part of the journey part of the journey. Why did you write the book?

Rebekah 33:33

Hmm. I just started writing a blog, actually. And I told myself, I'm going to sit down and write a blog post every day for a year. So I just did that. And, and I said to gab, or someone who I said to him, I said, I got this blog post, I got, like, I don't know, 80,000 words or something. He goes, that's a book. And when I heard that, I was like, being exactly being and I was like, Yeah, okay. And so I just started piecing it together and made it in a roughly chronicle it was not in any kind of chronological order. It was just the stories, just these these memories, little snapshots that came up and I just kind of, you know, blurt them out on the page. And, and, yeah, I,

Rex Hohlbein 34:19

what I found is that they, because of your, I think your genuine honesty and vulnerability and sharing. I feel like it allows the reader to kind of like honestly think about their own life and and access it. And I think it's because of how open you are in the way you share.

Rebekah 34:39

Thank you. That's the whole idea. But yeah, thank you,

Speaker 1 34:42

because I think you it's very beautiful in that in that way. There's one scene that that I paused that for quite a while that was and it's because of what you said earlier about

Rex Hohlbein 34:57

bandwidth but also, it tie As bandwidth for being ready for situations which creates awareness and yourself about how to move forward. And so often because it's a difficult road to navigate with, you know, jumping into the arena or the pool of homelessness and trying to be, be there with people in whatever fashion, you want that so often you're, you're just missing it. And you're and you're, you know, you can even create unintended consequences and you have to kind of be okay with that and be able to move through it. And that scene where you convince your mom to bring the television to you, brother, oh, man, it just just, it just did not work as you had imagined. And I I think it's an important piece to share. Because that's also the truth of trying to be helpful is that mistakes come along with it. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. I mean, yeah,

Rebekah 35:50

yeah, that story. My my brother Michael, I can say his real name Robert, because actually Robert passed away and and I didn't want to use his real name when he was still alive. But he passed away last year. And I was living in Vancouver, I bumped into him on the street and discovered he was living just a couple blocks away from me and you know, we'd use for years older, we'd grown up in this this terrible, violent household where he was sexually abused. And, and I to my memory was not sexually abused. But my brother would take out his anger on me, so I was beaten daily by me just sit on my chest and punch me in the face. And and yeah, lots lots of violence there. And so when I found out he was just living close by, I was just like, I was scared on the way but I also know knew that he and mom were trying to trying to reconcile some sort of relationship because he, you know, he was he was about six when mom left and I was younger was three and, and for him, he thought he was his mommy, you know, I mean, that was being torn away like that, I think was even more traumatic for him than it was for me. And no, I'm saying Mommy instead of mum. But anyways. He I said to mum, well, you know, Robert lives just like a few blocks away from me. And I was talking to him and asking him about, you know, what are you watching on TV and he doesn't have a TV. And I said, you know, Mum, you were saying that you had this TV you want to get rid of why don't you just give Robert the TV? And she's like, Oh, I don't know about that. And I was like, No, I convinced her. This is the thing to do. And mum didn't have a car. So I said, okay, just put it in the taxi and just, you know, get over there. And then I'll meet you there. And so she still she and her gut. Didn't want to.

Rex Hohlbein 37:48

They hadn't talked they hadn't talked

Rebekah 37:50

for Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there was this, you know, there was a sort of reconciliation, it was kind of I think they might have talked on the phone. But you know, really, there wasn't, you know, any big reconciliation with the two of them. And so anyways, I convinced him, you know, get the damn TV out of the car, and we'll struggle it up the walk, and we'll knock on the door. And, you know, and my brother answers. And this is a man that's been through hell right now. He's in his early 30s. He's extremely private, and doesn't like contact and has been invaded his whole life. And so here we are at his door. Here's your mom, and here's your TV. And, and he's just standing there with his mouth hanging open. And I'm like, here's the TV. Here's your mom. Like, I fixed everything, didn't I? You know, say thank you. And, and basically, he just slams the door. And, and poor Mum, I mean, you know, it still makes me cry. Poor mum. Yeah, it was hard enough to go against her own gut instincts and to go there in the first place. And to know that she had hurt him once again. And and yeah, and I and I was crushed you because what I really wanted was for them to just love each other and and I tried to force I tried to force something that didn't work. And yeah, and then the next morning, there's the TV out in the walk. I walked by and there's a sign on it. Take it, you know? And yeah, free. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, to mom's credit, she didn't give up on him. She She kept trying to have a relationship with Him. And, and I think that that was the best that it could be a lesson I learned a big lesson about about forcing something and trying to impose my will upon a situation in a way that was With sensitive to the situation or the people,

Rex Hohlbein 40:02

yeah, check in with with yourself about does this feel right? Yeah. And and is this what they're actually wanting? Or is this something I need? Right

Rebekah 40:11

because I knew in my guts that it wasn't right the whole time, but am I at that point in my life and I still see this sometimes that I override my own gut instincts. Because that's what you have to do when you're a kid in a traumatic situation, when when abuse is happening. You You have to, you have to find a way of, of almost rising above it by its This isn't happening right now. So I'm going to ignore my gut instincts, that, that my father is doing that or my brother is doing that this can't be happening. So it's, it's a pattern of ignoring one's gut instincts.

Rex Hohlbein 40:50

I've never understood that. Because, you know, what we're always taught is listen to your listen to your heart, listen to your body, you know, and, and, and that's interesting to hear that trauma can move you out of that and into your, into your head to find the rationalization or the or the explanation. But, but you're actually disconnecting from, from that very important. Centering. And

Rebekah 41:14

that is basically what PTSD is, you know, it's, it's a, it's a normal response to an abnormal situation. So yeah, we just kind of, we just kind of remove ourselves from it. But when that becomes habitual, when it becomes something that we don't have a choice over, then then it. We don't know how to respond properly in a situation when we really need to.

Rex Hohlbein 41:39

Yeah, so you had to learn to trust your gut again. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, is that the work of healing? Yes.

Rebekah 41:46

Absolutely. Yeah. To know the difference between what feels like yes, and what feels like no. And, and then to trust, trust those things. Yeah. And sometimes it's not yes or no, sometimes it's maybe or it's I don't know, and that's okay. You know, yeah. And so it's like, oh, I need more time, I need more information I need, I need more checking in with myself, in order to have some some more clarity in this situation.

Rex Hohlbein 42:14

I want to there's a couple of things here. I want to like just read a couple little quotes that I wrote down. And I had, maybe you wouldn't have any more to say about it than just what I'm reading. And that's, that's good, too. But if you have more to share on it, I think they're, they're just they struck me as being very important things. simple but important. The first one is on page 62 You write we always remember how someone makes us feel. And I really find that so important, because, well, one is I find it to be true. Like that's, that's how I am I even in my brain of my rolodex of people. It's almost the first thing that that's that I identify with his How did they make me feel? How did you know? How do I feel? When I'm with them? And can you? I mean, can you talk a little about that? Why is that important for you? Why did you write that? I

Rebekah 43:12

smile when I think of this memory, even though it's kind of a painful memory. And that that quote that you just read came from the story where my dad is painting the front porch, and I step out into the front porch and slide into the paint and just, you know, go down the stairs, the paint can tips over just makes a big mess, and I'm, I'm covered in paint. And I'm just a little kid and they were maybe six or seven years old. And I'm figuring because my dad's got this temper you know, my dad you know often would explode about things. And in this case, like I'm scared I've made a mess and and and I wrecked everything. And and so I'm crying already. And my dad just you know really gently brings me into the kitchen and get some paint thinner paint remover, whatever I did the cupboard and just start taking it off my leg and and he's not mad and I'm kind of amazed that he's not mad and he's just being like gentle with me like somehow just really compassionate and gentle. And I just it's a memory that I have that that makes me love him in spite of all of the other stuff because it kind of that love cut through a lot of the a lot of the hard stuff Yeah. And and, and I wonder in retrospect and I reflect on this in the book, Where did he learn that gentleness? Where did that gentleness come from, you know, was it just inspired by the fact that he had a scary little girl who was his daughter in front of him? And, yeah, just the beauty of that moment, stuck to me,

Rex Hohlbein 45:11

you know, when you share it that way, it makes me think about an earlier conversation that we had around not seeing people for just the one thing that affected you to know that they have many other sides. So here's a father that clearly sexually abusing your, your brother and, and having other components in his in his life that dramatically affected you. But yet, you are still, in retrospect, now looking at all of that and saying, but he also had some beautiful sides to Him, and to remember that we all are made up of parts and pieces of good and bad, yes.

Rebekah 45:52

Well, and it's not white washing, you know, and it's not. It's not canonizing somebody for, for, you know, all the good that they do. And so you're forgetting all the bad. It's it's a broader, it's just widening the window, it's just broadening the view and seeing this person, my dad, as somebody who you held multitudes within him. Yeah. And, yeah, just like we all do, just like we all would

Rex Hohlbein 46:21

like every one of us every one. And then I would think that you would, you would say this, that, that, and then it's up to us to which of those that we are, you know, letting impact us, you know, or maybe not saying that correctly, that we're, if we're open to all of it, then we get to choose which of those we're actually bringing close to us? Is that?

Rebekah 46:44

Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, or do we broaden our capacity to just take it, take it all in. And I think that's the true challenge of of humanity is to, you know, for every person to take in every person in every nation to take in every nation and etc, etc. And we're all so compartmentalized, and so narrow in what will accept of one another. That that's, that's our real challenge in humanity is to is to broaden, broaden our ability. Yeah, yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 47:21

If only we're working on it. Okay, another quick one, you wrote, when we this is page 122. I can also go to it if you want me to jog the memory. But when we experienced trauma, it often changes us because we are laid bare down to the things that matter most. And that for me speaks into these times when you know, I'll start to talk about so much beauty that I see in people that are outside. And when I do it, I have to be quick to say I don't want to romanticize it like like it's like something you wouldn't wish on anybody but because of it. This other beautiful thing happened in do you feel that way about it? First of all, is that what? What are you saying here? And how do you feel about that comment that these tragic things that do happen to us? also end up birthing unbelievably beautiful things and people?

Rebekah 48:18

Yeah, well, I think just stepping back to what you said that, you know, you don't want to romanticize but you do see the beauty, because that's the eyes that you're looking through, right. I mean, that's just part of Rex, that's just part of who you are. And yeah, I've kind of the the deep stability of of yourself, allows you to see more of that you're looking through that lens anyways, more often than I think then then many people might be looking through a much harsher lens. And I know for me that and I think this is true of everybody that that we see what that when somebody is struggling, and the struggle really strips something away from us, then we really were left with whatever, whatever, whoever we are, is the most sort of basic authentic part of us. And that's kind of what I've felt over the years is that nothing can really hurt me, because I've already already felt that and I already have just gotten down to a real basic place.

Rex Hohlbein 49:34

Yeah. Has it reduced fear in your life? Because of it? Yeah,

Rebekah 49:39

yes. And, and I think I go through phases of getting triggered to and back into it being brought back into it. And I think this just lit proverbial onion, you know, of just the layers of healing and how I gauge partly how I gauge my own healing is a noticing back to the analogy of the wound that it doesn't hurt as much. It doesn't hurt as often. It is not hurt as easily. And, and whatever scar has formed over it is is starting to dissipate so that it's becoming more homogenous. Yeah. With with the rest of me. So it becomes integrated. There's that word integrated.

Rex Hohlbein 50:33

Yep. So it's not like one day, it's, it's all gone. But you're learning to, to live with it and to actually incorporate it. Yeah.

Rebekah 50:43

Yeah. And the healing, of course, is not an event. It's a process. Yeah. Like everything, like everything is

Rex Hohlbein 50:50

right. Okay, here's another one. Okay. Seeing someone without projecting what we believe about them is a learned skill. And then you also just a little bit after road, you know, the pain or isolation of not being seen, either kind of both sides of that, right? Like, like, what we do to people by projecting our own belief of who they are. And then the result of actually that projection is keeping them from feeling, seeing what they're what they're feeling is your projection but not actually

Rebekah 51:22

being seen? Well, and that's the beauty of just say, Hello, you know, right? Isn't it just for a moment, giving your time and attention, those are our precious commodities in life, our time and attention, and giving time and attention to somebody who has felt invisible, can change can just bring some light into that that dark, you know, that dark cavern of belief that I don't matter, and that nobody's ever going to help me. And that's what cynicism is. So cynicism is crushed. Hope, you know, so we become cynical that yeah, it's never going to get better. Like I nothing, nothing ever works. Anyways, you know, why should I believe that mean? That's basically what's happening in America right now is there's this intense cynicism we see in in our political figures. Right. And so, yeah, just one moment to let some of that cynicism dissipate for somebody by engaging in a real authentic way and give me time and attention. Yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 52:29

I am visible. Somebody you actually saw me? Yeah. Yeah.

Rebekah 52:33

And, and enough moments like that happen? I think it does make a difference. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 52:39

Like, what do you think the biggest growth for you was in writing this book? And I know, writing is, is a huge entry point into healing. I mean, writing is really cathartic. And, and, and telling, but like, what, like, what do you ever take away from writing this book, when it was all said and done and you and you reflect on it? Like, what was the growth that came out of it for you? They

Rebekah 53:04

it was, it was giving myself the time and attention, to really look at my life and to look at my experiences and to stand back and have that perspective. I felt very, I felt like I'd really nurtured myself. And sometimes it was hard sometimes, you know, a lot would come up as I was sort of reliving some of these experiences,

Rex Hohlbein 53:27

and still does, right, like, even just retelling the TV. Still. Yeah, like, brought a

Rebekah 53:33

lot of emotion. Yeah, but in a healing way, right. It's just like it just peeling away, peeling away shedding shedding the skin. You know, letting the dust settle into the clear water so that I can see all the way through and yeah, I just feel really proud. Yeah. I'm really, really proud. genuinely

Rex Hohlbein 53:53

happy for you. Thank you. I mean, it's a beautiful book.

Rebekah 53:57

Thank you very much.

Rex Hohlbein 53:58

I'm glad I I'm glad that you shared it with

Rebekah 54:01

me. Coming from you. That's like a huge compliment because I just love you and admire you and Yeah, lovely. Well,

Rex Hohlbein 54:11

thank you. All right. I think that was beautiful. And I want to say thank

Rebekah 54:16

you. Okay, thanks, Rex. Yeah. You

Rex Hohlbein 54:20

know, me now is produced, written and edited by Tomas brunette ski and me, Rex Holbein. We would like to give a heartfelt thanks to Rebecca for taking the time to speak with us. You know, me now has a Facebook and Instagram page where you can join in on the conversation. We also have a website at WWW dot you know me now.com Where you can see photos of Rebecca as well as read other stories of folks we feel you should get to know. Thanks as always for listening