Rex Hohlbein 0:00

This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics, including strong language, drug use, sex trafficking and other conditions of human suffering. Listener discretion is advised.

Dene 0:17

I remember the first time that that happened, I was there was a thunderstorm. I'm hearing this thunder and lightning and I'm, I'm scared. So I run out to the living room crying, and he's on the couch watching cartoons. So he says, you know, come lay down with me. All night. I remember I kept pushing him pushing my hand away. Or just, you know, I couldn't sleep. I was tossing and turning because he was bothering. I felt like he was safe. You know, I came to him for comfort. And I didn't know how to respond to that. So I just, you know, brushed it off.

Unknown Speaker 1:03

Yeah. And again, you were seven,

Unknown Speaker 1:06

seven years old seven.

Rex Hohlbein 1:15

Hello, everyone. I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to eunomia. Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community. For the past 12 years, I have met and spent a great deal of time with 1000s of folks living homeless. Through those conversations and friendships. I learned how destructive and baseless the dehumanizing effects of the negative stereotype are against ordinary people, people who are just like you and me. In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here, do so with a great deal of vulnerability and courage. They share a common hope that by giving all of us a window into their world, they are opening an increased level of awareness, understanding and connection within our own community.

Dene 2:18

Well, my mom was the single mom of six for a long time. Well, she wasn't exactly a single mom, she had a husband that just was a succubus, basically, and beat her. Those are my earliest memories was hiding in a motel room with my brothers. And we knew he was gonna find us. It was just a matter of time, you know, before, you know, came through the door started beaten on my mom. I remember hiding in the bathroom, terrified with my brothers just crying, wanting to do something but feeling totally helpless.

Rex Hohlbein 3:02

Want to begin this episode? By asking a really big question. With all the suffering, all the helplessness and fear filled, as expressed by Renee and others living on our streets, why have we not ended homelessness? Now beyond what the solutions need to be, whatever combination of more housing, more mental health, more drug rehab, more job training, and whatever else more is needed? Why haven't we made it happen? Could it be that we are only seeing the forest and because of it genuinely missing the trees? Are we so overwhelmed by the larger issue of homelessness, that we are truly missing? The person going through it? When folks living inside, discuss homelessness among each other, the conversation often ends up being about how, quote The issue unquote, affects them or their neighborhood. To put it directly. What impacts the lives of the housed is what gets talked about when discussing the unhoused. Now that list includes the piling up of garbage, drug use loss of park use, taxes, panhandling, right down to how the homeless smell and look on public transit. And because many people living inside are, frankly tired of it, or overwhelmed by it or even angry over it. Often the knee jerk reaction is to want all of it the whole issue to just go away. As community we then support or quietly consent, while the city RECs chainlink fencing around areas that we're providing cover from the rain for those without shelter, we are okay with hostile architecture installed that prevents people from being able to sleep on benches where they were able to be off the ground. We are put off when we see folks hiding in the bushes or back alleys publicly going to the bathroom. But we don't demand public bathrooms and garbage pickup for those without a place to live. And we turn away when sweeps are conducted, not seeing the lives being uprooted. Despite these types of actions, as well as the efforts to bring programs and services, the issue not only persists, it is getting worse. We have to ask ourselves, really, why is that? What are we missing here is only seeing the issue of homelessness. And its effect on us. The housed part of the problem with our programs and services change if we changed how we see the issue, meaning if we start to see the person actually suffering through homelessness. Today, we have the sincere pleasure of talking with Janae. If you listened to our last episode, titled The Sweep, you already know her voice. For this recording, we started our conversation with Renee asking about her early childhood and the unstable home life she was exposed to while her mother struggled to provide.

Dene 6:43

At this point, she only had four of us. And then she got with this other guy and had two more kids. And this other guy was just an alcoholic loser basically. And I was sexually abused from the time I was seven the time I was 12 by him and came out about it. And nobody believed me.

Rex Hohlbein 7:06

cluding your mom? Yeah. So

Dene 7:08

I had the opportunity to go to court. But you know, being 12 years old, being told I'm wrong. And having to fight in a courtroom was not exactly ideal. So I chose not to.

Rex Hohlbein 7:22

I'm so sorry about that. It's horrible. Yeah.

Dene 7:25

It is what it is. It's really common, actually, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 7:30

how do you know it's common? Do

Unknown Speaker 7:31

you have friends, a lot of women that

Dene 7:34

I know that are homeless, they have experienced very similar experience, you know, things like oh, and a really common thing for mothers to do is not believe they're their children when they tell them that because they don't want to believe that they put their child in that position. I think, you know how I could never do that to my kid, you know, they have to be lying, basically, is what I think it is and doesn't excuse it. But it's nonetheless that that seems like the most reasonable if there is one explanation for that.

Rex Hohlbein 8:13

When I first met today, about seven years ago, she was cruising down University Avenue on her skateboard with a sketchbook. She was just 19 years old and wonderfully full of ideas. Vibrant, really, I didn't know back then, when I first met her that she was homeless. It hadn't visibly physically taken from her yet. There was no way for me to know how difficult her life had already been. Well, I

Dene 8:42

was a problem child. You know, I did I was I acted out. But a lot of it was because of being sexually abused. And I felt like I wasn't getting the attention that I needed. And I was scared. You know, I didn't know what to do. And I didn't understand that it was something that was wrong at that age. Because at that time, you know, your body tells you one thing that this feels good, right? But your mind tells you that it's wrong. Something's not right about Yeah. So there comes a point where you get confused and almost scared because you don't want to be in trouble. And a lot of a lot of people, the children that go through that they don't even talk about it.

Rex Hohlbein 9:31

Denae quickly figured out she could manipulate the situation by being rebellious and difficult. Deep underneath at all. She felt completely betrayed by the adults in her life.

Dene 9:43

I knew I could get away with it because he had a special thing for me or whatever so I could act out and not get my ass beat and basically is what it came down to. But my brothers he was really mean to you know, he threw one of my brothers downstairs by his hair. He was just a bad guy. My mom broke up with him. Or he broke up with her about six months after I got kicked out. Probably because he didn't have a little girl to fuck with anymore. And I was allowed to come back. But I didn't want to at that point, I felt betrayed.

Speaker 1 10:22

Yeah, and how old were you? I was 12, almost 13. And when you say

Rex Hohlbein 10:27

kicked out, like my mom, you go at 12 or 13 years old when you're kicked out.

Dene 10:33

Um, I went to a bridge

you know, I found a bridge. And there was an old couple alcoholic couple that took me in. And there was a guy whose name was Todd. So immediately, I was like, Uncle Todd, you know, and this guy kept me safe. You know, we had to share a blanket, but it wasn't inappropriate. He was a good, comforting, you know, figure in my life for a little bit. He was looking out for you. Yeah. And I felt safe, because he never tried anything that like that, you know, so I felt safe for once.

Rex Hohlbein 11:19

I'm curious what your mom would say now about knowing or being told that you were sexually abused as she owned that she like, have you had that conversation? With her?

Dene 11:32

I've tried. Um, she, I don't think that she's ready to talk about it. I've because I've tried, I want closure. And I want her to acknowledge what I've been through. And know that it's not her fault. No, that I don't blame her, that I love her. And that, you know, things happen. But not to just brush it off, you know, acknowledge that that happened and give me a chance to, you know, redeem myself, essentially, because I, there was a lot of, you know, I struggled with drug addiction for a long time, because of what I'd been through. And so I was very selfish. It sounds

Rex Hohlbein 12:19

like surviving, not being selfish. Just Well,

Dene 12:23

yeah. But in a way. Drug addiction is, you know, the people that use drugs are very selfish people, you know, they don't care about how they affect people around them. You could be torturing your family members and loved ones and not even give a shit.

Rex Hohlbein 12:41

So they're more receptive drugs doing it's the drugs. Yeah, you know, that's what they become.

Dene 12:47

Yeah. And I think that the feelings about that the regret, the embarrassment, the self loathing feeling that you get from knowing that you treat people who really care about you so poorly, is enough to keep somebody stuck in addiction? Well, I regret a lot of things that I've done.

Rex Hohlbein 13:11

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's, that's something I haven't heard before. And I really appreciate it because it explains, you know, the load that, that a person is carrying, that's gone through drug addiction, and if they, if they treat other people poorly, that they're still carrying the memories of that, yeah.

Dene 13:29

When it's never brushed off, you know, it's very much remembered. And I've had, it's funny, because I have friends that have struggled with addiction as well, and they've done something to screw me over and felt so guilty that they come out and tell me, you know, and I think that, that really goes to show that, you know, a lot of people have really negative feelings towards drug addicts, because they don't understand where, where they're coming from, but we're not totally heartless, you know, those, these, these people that, you know, they're out stealing, and destroying people's properties and all this stuff. They're doing that to feed their addiction. And I don't think that that's excusable by any means. But I think that if we can try to understand where it comes from, we might be able to solve the problem. And

Rex Hohlbein 14:27

if we were to back up one step, even from there, which is why did they take drugs in the first place? A lot of women that, you know, that are out on the street have been sexually abused, and men and men and men. And, and you think that's, I mean, that's it. That's a common story that that that drug addiction follows that and I know when I hear that, like my heart just goes out to you. I think, I like I, again, I don't want to like say Oh, then We shouldn't be bothered by drug addiction and the consequences of it. But like, I'm trying to find the right words, but it's almost like I want to give you a free pass on life, knowing what you went through during that time. That sounds sounds horrific and explains it. To me it explains drug addiction. Yeah.

Dene 15:18

Well, you know, I look at that. And then I hear about, you know, for example, like a single mother who struggled with addiction that got clean, right for their child, like my mom did. As soon as she struggled with addiction, when she was young, and as soon as she got pregnant with me at 16, she quit. And my mom's story is inspirational to me, because she is by far the strongest woman I know. And everything that I've said about my mom so far, it's not to say that, that she's a bad woman. She's a very wonderful woman, and she works very hard. She worked three jobs at a time. That's mostly why she couldn't pay attention to what was going on with me, because she was always working. You know, she busted her ass for us. Yeah, it's hard to provide for six kids on your own. You know? Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 16:19

Especially if you are also receiving abuse from your

Dene 16:23

partner. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, he was taking money and using it for alcohol and as video games, and it was just, you know, he didn't put in anything he was just taking from us. And he, he, my mom, she, no matter what she had to get up every morning, she has degenerative disc disease, it's extremely painful. She was prescribed a bunch of Oxycontin. And to this day, she still has to take them, you know, but there was a long stretch of time where she could not get out of bed. So we were really struggling for money. And I remember my brother told me, he was breaking into people's lockers during lunch, and stealing their electronics to go sell them at the pawn shop, so that he could provide money for us. And all of my siblings, out of all of them, I'm the only one that struggles with drug addiction. All of them have learned from me, I guess, not to be so weak, you know, in a sense,

Rex Hohlbein 17:32

is that how you see it being weak? Yeah. Yeah.

Dene 17:36

Kind of. I mean, there's a lot of things that I think that I've been through that I just don't even know how I could still be seen. But I think that drug addiction is just a cop out, you know, it's a way to escape the pain and the world around you. And it's unfortunate. I'm so grateful to have a mother that that was willing to work so hard for, for me and for my brothers. No matter what she she's, you know, she's strong. She's like a super woman of sorts to Denise

Rex Hohlbein 18:19

real biological father left the family. As soon as he found out that Denise mother was pregnant with DNA. He went to the Philippines, remarried, had more children there and returned to the States with his new wife and kids. As often is the case. It's complicated. So

Dene 18:37

I was kind of a black sheep. As far as my dad's side was concerned, I was not treated the same as my as my brothers, you know, always kind of outcasted because I wasn't, you know, my parents had me out of wedlock.

Rex Hohlbein 18:57

How did you have the wherewithal at 12 to, to be able to handle that or at had been there just been enough shit? Up to that point that this was just another step? Yeah,

Dene 19:06

pretty much. I just, I wanted out. I was having problems at school because I was wouldn't sleep at night because of my night terrors. And because I was being sexually abused. I didn't get enough sleep. So during school, I'd fall asleep. So I was super behind my math. My mathematical skills are so horrendous. I truly believe that. I have the skills of mathematical skills of a fourth grader. I'm not far behind. Well, you just didn't get the education. Yeah, yeah. After sleeping through enough school. I didn't didn't have the knowledge to move forward with, you know, my education. And I got frustrated and just gave up.

Rex Hohlbein 19:57

So you you quit school? Yeah. You It's common knowledge that stress reduces the ability for good decision making. We've all experienced that. But chronic stress that Denae experienced from the age of seven compounds the situation by creating tunnel vision, reducing the number of options to make decisions from DNA was trapped. There was no safety at home. And on the street, being a very young woman, she was extremely vulnerable. So

Dene 20:29

from 12 on, it was just like, I was stuck in this weird mess, ring like sex ring, like basically. And I didn't even realize what was going on. I was basically being sold for for math, and didn't realize it for a few years. Before I got out of that, the guy that was operating this whole ring went to prison. Yeah, so by the time I got out of that, I was about 14.

Rex Hohlbein 21:10

How was it that you were unaware that you were in a sex ring between 12? And 14? I mean, why was this?

Dene 21:17

Because they make you think that it's something you want? They make you think that it's your idea? You know, and,

Rex Hohlbein 21:26

like, I don't like give me examples, like,

Dene 21:31

introduce you to somebody and be like, yeah, he's really cute. Right? You like him? Yeah. Yeah, come on, you know, you like him, you know, kind of thing. And then. So exchange would happen, and he'd take off with with me, and then abandoned me somewhere. And then I would go back to the original person I was with, and do it all over again. Yeah. It sounds crazy. I know that you wouldn't be aware of something like that. But it's been that young, it's kind of hard to understand where people's motivation comes from, I think. And I had already been exposed to sexual abuse. So it was the norm at this point. Yeah. You know, were

Rex Hohlbein 22:21

these people that were also on the street? Or were they Yes. Yeah, I see.

Dene 22:26

There's a huge sex ring on in the homeless community that goes around. It's very sick, twisted. How,

Rex Hohlbein 22:37

how prevalent is that? Like, like, my, like, I'm oblivious to that whole world, right, because I just down. And so when SWAT when I hear you say that, I It's hard for me to say, is that just every once in a while a story? Or is that? Is that? No,

Dene 22:53

that's a very common occurrence. Like, most of the women that I know, have, at some point in their life been through that. On the street being trafficked? Yeah. Not to the point where they were taken out of the city or the state, you know, but they were forced to perform sexual favors, you know, for money by either men or women. And they were either they, either they have children, and somebody would threaten their children's lives, or they would threaten their lives, you know, so it goes a lot deeper than then I think a lot of people can really understand. So whenever I see a sex worker, I just, it breaks my heart. Sometimes

Rex Hohlbein 23:45

you hear and I don't subscribe to this thought. But sometimes you'll hear people say, Well, you know, in the sex industry, there are a certain percentage of women who want to be there. Do you think that's true?

Dene 23:55

Yeah. Yeah, that is true to a point. Um, but it's a very small percentage,

Rex Hohlbein 24:03

I think. Yeah. Overwhelmingly, people are being coerced into it. Yeah.

Dene 24:06

Yeah. Just like how I was talking about not being aware that I, that they were making me think that that was something I want. I think that it's very common, that maybe a very sexual oriented person, woman or man, you know, who just likes to have fun and have sex with friends or whatever they get coerced into, into selling themselves, you know, and because that's they would have had sex anyways, so why not make money doing it? So and then they get, sometimes it turns into a forced thing, you know, and it's really unfortunate.

Rex Hohlbein 24:51

As often is the case, it only takes one person to reach in and help pull someone through when they are in crisis. They did have a boyfriend at the time, who was there for her when things got really bad. He

Dene 25:06

was a little bit older than me. So, and I think that he expected more of me. You know, because I was, I don't he didn't know about everything that I had been through. There were times where, you know, I was really lost and scared and I would, you know, talk I would get a hold of him on Facebook and tell him hey, I'm, I'm lost. I'm scared. Can you come pick me up? He'd pick me up, we'd go up to the mountains, and spend a few days together up there. Yeah, sobering up. And, you know, just getting away from the world.

Rex Hohlbein 25:47

That's a that's a beautiful thing to do for a friend, someone that you cared about for sure. At 16, Denae gave birth to her daughter, she knew she was too young to be the mother she wanted to be. And at the same time, did not want to give her child up for adoption, for fear of losing her completely. Her mother, who now lives in eastern Washington, agreed to raise her child.

Dene 26:18

She doesn't know I'm her mom yet. But I hope that I get to know her better and tell her at some point.

Speaker 2 26:27

How often you get to see her. Um, now

Dene 26:31

that my mom moved to Eastern Washington, I haven't seen her in a while. The year before I had seen her. I, my friend Jamie took me out there to go see her. And I got to spend a day out there and she is wonderful. Absolutely beautiful. Very smart. She I remember the look on her face when we rolled up. She was so excited. She ran out there and she's like, she sees me and my little jumper outfit. She's like, Oh, my gosh, look at you. You look like an artist came straight out of Paris. And I I just remember thinking to myself, she doesn't even know. Yeah, you know, and that that just made me so happy to hear that. She just thinks so highly of me. Yeah. You know? And,

Rex Hohlbein 27:27

and how is how are you explained? You're just her?

Dene 27:30

I'm just her sister? Yeah, just her sister. You know? And I think she knows. I really do. Because she asked me about that at one point. And she just kind of hinted around it, but didn't directly ask me. And I didn't feel like it was the right time. So I just said, you know, yeah, I'm your sister, you know? And she's like, Well, you're the best big sister. Anybody could have. I just made my heart heart must have exploded. Yeah. I never thought in a million years. I'd hear that out of her mouth.

Rex Hohlbein 28:04

That's beautiful, you know?

Dene 28:09

So we painted together. I made her a couple paintings and to pitch took photos of everything that I made. And then we made paintings together. And we I took photos of that, you know, we went swimming. We jumped on a trampoline forever. She put me in my place. I was smoking a cigarette on the trampoline. Oh, yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 28:33

She told you to knock it off. Yeah, yeah.

Dene 28:37

Smart kid. I really want to be in my daughter's life. Like, I've I've neglected that so far. Because I know when I was 16 having her I was definitely not ready.

Speaker 3 28:51

Did you know that then? Yeah. Yeah, I was going to give

Dene 28:55

her up for adoption. But my aunt talked me out of it. I made an agreement with my mom, that part of the stipulations was six months. clean and sober. Minimum stable living position of stable living situation and maintaining a job for a year. Wow, and be financially stable before I can have her back in my life like that.

Rex Hohlbein 29:29

And it feels like you it really does feel like you're working towards that.

Dene 29:35

I think that it's only appropriate that since my life changed in such a drastic way at that age that it's about time that I come out to her, or at least become a more prominent figure in her life, so that I can open that door when she's ready. You know? She's so happy and so great. I am so I wasn't, I was so nervous. I didn't know what to say, you know, but she took care of that, like she led the conversation on. And I was worried about my sailor's mouth and, you know, my teeth being messed up, and do I smell bad? Do I look weird? You know? Am I sucked up, like, all these things in my head, and she didn't see any of my blogs that I thought she was going to see right away? Yeah. You know, it was just a really great experience for me, and I hope it was for her too. Sounds like that experience has been my latest news. That's all I can think about is just a little slice of paradise over there. You know, and I just want to be there so bad, like every, every, every time I think about it, I just imagined, you know, that property is just, it's so perfect. You know.

Rex Hohlbein 31:00

Too often, when we judge others, we forget that not everyone starts at the same start line. We can't measure how far Someone has come. When we don't know how far back they had to start. When I saw you last, which was I think a couple of years ago, you were down in Soto in the RV. And I think you had just found out that you had the kidney failure issues. And can you can you explain a little bit about that? Because I'm honestly, when I left you that last time I thought to myself, Oh, I might not ever see you again. And you You seem so healthy. And I know you probably are still struggling with some of that stuff. But can you explain a little bit about that? Yeah,

Dene 31:40

I was muscling massive amounts of heroin into my into my thighs and my butt and had infections regularly. abscesses. The doctor has told me that that was the cause it was I had renal. Was it sudden renal failure due to excessive continuous exposure to infection? And that makes sense to me. Because you know, your kidneys or your or that's your filter? You know, and I I was peeing out completely clear pee, which is people think that's a good thing. No, it's not. That means that all the toxins in my body that I should have been paying out or not being paid out. I'm still retaining all of them just didn't use word filtering it. Yeah. So my kidneys had 8% functionality at the time, and I was bedridden for about six months. I couldn't walk by myself, I had to have a friend to help me go to the bathroom every day. Anytime I had to move, I couldn't even lift a blanket with my legs. You know, I was so weak. And we were homeless. So he would put a trash can down and put a bag in it. And then Help me stand up, pull my pants down, sit on the trash can go to the bathroom. You know, tie it up, throw it out and help me lay back down. But I was peeing on myself regularly because my legs being swollen, so he'd have to help me change my clothes and all that other stuff. So I was basically a big baby. Yeah, for a long time. Yeah. And sick, big baby. Yeah. I'm eternally grateful for well, for that. He, he really helped me through that. And Jamie.

Rex Hohlbein 33:31

Yeah, but you didn't quit heroin use? So how did you come out of it?

Dene 33:36

Yeah, so I kept using for a long time through that. About six months of that. And then I was, he will said, today, your infection is bad. I can smell it from here. I cannot stand it anymore. And I'm scared, you're gonna die. You need to go to the hospital. So I went. When they told me that I had kidney failure. I was shocked. I didn't think that there was that much wrong with me. But then I started thinking about it and all the pains that I had in my lower back, right where my kidneys were, I would always have this, you know, and Twitch and it was, you know, it was like somebody stabbing me in the back in my kidneys. And I didn't know why. I remember thinking I thought there was something wrong with my kidneys. I brushed it off. So turns out I was right. And

Rex Hohlbein 34:34

yeah, so when you heard that news, did you really cut back on your use? Yeah,

Dene 34:39

for a little bit. I did. And then after I started going to my doctors regularly and they said, Look, we're not going to help you unless if you help yourself. We're not going to put the effort into helping you unless you help yourself because we regularly deal with drug addicts that we help and then they just Fuck it all up, and then they die. And we don't want to feel like we did something wrong. So you help yourself, and we'll help you. So that's what I did. I got on methadone, and I quit shooting heroin. I relapsed on the perk. 30s that have been going around her 30s Yeah, the blue pills.

Rex Hohlbein 35:24

The fentanyl pills. Yeah, the ones that you smoke on a little aluminum tin foil.

Dene 35:28

Yeah, I relapsed on that. And was smoking that for a while, but it made me sick, like coughing up nasty shit. And so I switched to fentanyl powder. Like my use has always been extremely high. Like i i honestly use more than anybody I know. When I use, you know, so I've only overdose the first time I ever did it. So I was very safe user, but I used an excessive amount. Always. fentanyl or anything I used.

Rex Hohlbein 35:59

Yeah. But today I know you know this. There's lots of information about how deadly the fentanyl powder is. Yeah.

Dene 36:07

I think that yeah, the fentanyl powder has been. I've lost a lot of people. I've lost about 15 or 16 friends over the past year to fentanyl powder.

Rex Hohlbein 36:24

Um, but you're not taking any fentanyl now? No. And are you on methadone still? No. So you're completely clean? Yeah. Yeah, wow. Yeah, that's a that's so beautiful. Yeah,

Dene 36:40

I'm so happy for you. It feels good to feel things again. You know, my kidneys have 25% functionality, which is a huge improvement for me.

Rex Hohlbein 36:53

And will the kidneys continue to improve? No,

Dene 36:56

no, the doctor told me that. It's not like your liver where your liver can repair itself. You know, your kidneys when you do damage to them? Typically, it's, it's done. He said, I'll probably be on dialysis at some point in my life, but it's going to be way down the road. So I'm not looking forward to it. But I'm happy to know that I'm not going to be on dialysis anytime

Rex Hohlbein 37:22

soon. Yeah. And also that you are live. Yeah, yeah.

Dene 37:27

Yeah. Because I was. Mostly I was upset about not being able to be bigger in my daughter's life. Yeah. I'm hoping to get my teeth fixed soon, because I'm sick and tired of being in pain, and they look horrendous?

Rex Hohlbein 37:48

Is there a program to help you with that?

Dene 37:50

I'm not sure about that. I've been looking into it. I have heard that there's a couple schools that will do the will do work on your teeth. If, if you allow students to do it, I'm a little concerned about the idea of that because their students, but I don't have the finances to, to provide, or to be able to afford that. So I'm willing to take a chance. Yeah, that would help I think a lot with my self esteem, being able to integrate back into society. It's, it's hard for me to be able to look for a job. Because I want to, I want to do something where I'm like, I would like to be a waitress or, you know, housekeeping and stuff like that. But when people see my teeth, they automatically are like, you know, they're like, What the fuck was wrong with this, but she you know, and so, it's a turn off instantly, you know? And it gives me a hard time trying to find a legitimate job. What kind of work are you doing? Um, so I do like a little bit of everything. I've done landscaping, I do housekeeping. I've done delivery, driving, you know, just anything and everything I can in order to make money that doesn't involve selling my body. Yeah, yeah, that's

Rex Hohlbein 39:18

it seems like a really good step for you. Yeah, honestly, to be having employment and starting to feel like you know, you can you can bring income in.

Dene 39:26

Yeah, right now I need to to, like I lost my I lost everything I owned this year, like three times over, like my Pontiac got towed with most of what I had. And then my GMC got stolen with almost everything, including my dad's photos and and everything that I owned that belonged to my dad besides his wallet, which that's all I have left of him is his wallet. That

Rex Hohlbein 39:55

is that is so frustrating. Yeah.

Dene 39:57

And I worked really hard for everything I had You know, yeah. And it's not much, but it's mine. Yeah. And the city's doing that a lot to people, especially homeless people. There's a lot of homeless people that actually work legitimate jobs, you know, and people don't know that. But it's a real thing. Yeah. Yeah, there are a group of homeless people that steal, and whatever. But that's not all of them. And so for that for the city, or anybody else to just walk in and say, you can't have this anymore, because you don't deserve it is messed up. And and

Rex Hohlbein 40:38

people that are my experience has been that people in the street fight so hard to save a few of the things they have from their past. And it's so hard when everything gets wet, things get swept when things get stolen, or even drug addiction, they get lost. It's, it's really, there's

Dene 40:57

precious magic. Yeah, there's precious things that I had that I will never get back. And it sounds ridiculous, because it's just stuff. But that stuff matters to me, you know? Where

Rex Hohlbein 41:09

do you think you are on your journey of recovering from those, from all the things that have happened to you? Are you in a good place,

Dene 41:17

I think I'm starting to understand where I'm supposed to be. I can't wait to get off the streets, I know that there's a lot the the city is moving forward with trying to get all the homeless into housing. And that's something I'm really excited for. I've also heard that they're not giving housing anymore, and that they're starting to do shelters again, which, if that's the case, I really am scared, you know, I don't want to be in a shelter.

Rex Hohlbein 41:56

That's why don't you want to be in a shelter,

Dene 41:59

it's an environment that I feel I would be eaten up in, you know, because almost people can be very much so like a pack of wolves, or coyotes, you know, they're just, and especially when you're a young, cute woman, by yourself, you know, you get eaten up really fast. I, I also want to, I'd like to be a foster mom at some point, you know, to help stop the problem before it starts. In the future for other people, you know, because I feel like with my life experiences I can, I can not only relate to children that have been through that, or have been abused sexually, or physically, emotionally, whatever I can relate, I understand. I feel like I can help people, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 43:07

you know, they talk about like, lots of different. They didn't use to talk this way. But when they talk about people being smart, now they talk about people being smart in lots of different ways. And you seem actually smart in a number of ways. But you You seem emotionally smart, like almost like your life experiences have have kind of given you a broader perspective. Is that do you think that's true? Yeah,

Dene 43:33

definitely. Because I is weird and sick as it is, I can empathize with anybody, really. Even the people that are so sick, that they abused children, I can somewhat empathize with them. Because if you're sexually attracted to something, you cannot help that. I understand that. But going through with that with a child is sick and wrong, you know, so, and people don't understand why I say, I can empathize with that. But, you know, being through it kind of helps me with that. I think. I know, it sounds weird, but

Rex Hohlbein 44:13

no, I, I, I subscribed to something similar that, you know, we're here to love everybody. And everybody got to where they are, through their own variables and own circumstances and their own genetic pool. And yeah, that isn't like, let people off the responsibility hook. And there is this weird gap in there. And that made my believing that we're responsible for our actions, but at the same time, we're also such a product of how we were raised and what our makeup is, and it's, it's a really difficult thing to get your head around.

Dene 44:47

Yeah. And I think when people talk about sympathy and empathy, I think people confuse the two a lot. You know the difference between sympathy and empathy is sympathizing for someone is like feeling bad for them, right. But empathy is different. It's understanding where the person's coming from, not from your perspective, but from theirs through their life experience. So truly putting yourself in their shoes, and giving them essentially the benefit of the doubt that, you know, there is a reason why they are the way they are.

I'm still definitely in those in the healing process. But I would say I'm just about ready to overcome that. But I feel like you never truly overcome it, you know, it's, it's gonna be a part of me, and the way that I am for the rest of my life. And I know that it affects every decision that I make, when, when it comes to people and interactions that I have with them. I'm a lot less likely to, to do certain things that, you know, most people would think, why not? You know, because I don't want to be made a victim, you know. And I see people put themselves out there in dangerous positions all the time. And when I was young, I didn't understand what I was doing. But I put myself in the position regularly when I was young, because I was repeating that cycle. And it's a subconscious thing that you do to deal with trauma. And I know it sounds crazy and doesn't make sense. But that's sometimes what ends up happening. You know, either somebody that's been abused becomes an abuser, or they continue to experience that abuse over and over and over again. Yeah. And their future interactions. Yep.

Rex Hohlbein 46:56

It's it oddly becomes comfortable or normal. Yeah, definitely.

Dene 47:01

And like, when I was, you know, 13, and 14, I was sleeping with men in their 40s. Like, like, there was nothing wrong with that. And I didn't realize that there was something wrong with them for finding a 12 or 13 year old girl, sexually attractive, you know, I didn't, it's not something wrong with them. I didn't mean that. But that there was something wrong with that relationship that I was having with these men, because they were much too old. For me, and I was still a kid making very adult decisions. I don't regret any of it. But it definitely, I feel like if I can help people, if we could try to help people prevent that for themselves, you know, or for their children, or their grandchildren, or their nieces or nephews or whatever, you know, maybe we can start to see, you know, some positive results.

Rex Hohlbein 48:12

And you said something else that I think is really interesting is that, yes, it centers on mental health, but you can't just call everybody into, into the hospital for their mental health, like, like if somebody's bleeding out, or has a heart attack, right. So it also feels like our society needs to learn to have bandwidth, to allow people to be having mental health issues, and waiting and waiting for them to come to it, loving them, providing for them, trying to create the stepping stones for them, to where they say to themselves, I need to get help with this, is that would that be accurate?

Dene 48:54

I would look at it like, like a rescue. You know, like, if you if you see an animal that's been, you know, rescued, like, maybe a pitbull that was in a fighting ring or whatever, you know, that that animal is going to be very timid, and very scared, and probably aggressive, and probably food aggressive. And, and they're not gonna like you at first, you know, but if you take the time, and get to know them, and respect their boundaries, and, you know, respect that they've been starved out, and, you know, let them you know, let them be them, and, but still be there for them. They will come around and they will start to love you. And I feel like then the healing can start. You know,

Rex Hohlbein 49:44

today that is so beautiful. And actually it's just like that's the society that we want, right? I mean, we're we can do that for each other. Like, we can see that hurt and pain and say whoa, you need you need you need space, you need our love, you need time. And, and we're going to, we're going to be there for you. Right? That's, we would do that for an animal that needs rescuing. It's hard to comprehend why we're not doing that for each other.

Dene 50:16

Definitely, like, I've always looked at society and homelessness as us versus them. But I've kind of come to a realization over the past couple of years that it's not, it shouldn't be us versus them, it should be us, as we together, you know, and like, until we can figure out how to set aside our differences, stop victim shaming, quit pushing shit under the rug, and actually talk about things, you know, sexual abuse, oh, awareness, and prevention, harm prevention, all these things are really progressive, you know, things that that should be utilized. And they should be put to use because they're there. And, and there's, there's plenty of platforms to be able to express yourself about, you know, issues you may be having at home, social media and stuff like that, you could talk about these things, you know, if you're, if you're, let's say, a single parent, and you just started dating, for the first time, you know, since since you had kids, maybe talk to your kids about the dangers of, you know, men or women that they may bring into the house, this is a possibility. And if, if you see any signs, let me know. Because until we do that, you're just setting yourself up for failure. You know, the way that the system works right now is it doesn't work. It's broken. And I feel like there's a lot of things that people could do and should do. And our begins with talking. Yeah. And that's, that's it.

Rex Hohlbein 52:01

Somehow, through all of the trauma, DNA has found a beautiful way to share about her journey. It's clear, she does this not only for her own healing, but also out of a desire to help others to be a voice for those struggling through similar experiences. She wants all of us to just talk about it, to make it normal to talk about difficult things.

Dene 52:28

When I was seven, that's the first time I experienced it. And I didn't know what to think, you know, I just knew that this was kind of weird. And this is a father figure to me. So how can I know that this is a wrong thing, because he's supposed to protect me, he's supposed to love me, like a daughter. And he's not. He's loving me. Much more than that, you know, and it's not okay. And I didn't go through sex ed until almost Middle School, fifth, fifth grade. So by that point, it had already gone on for years, you know, and I was already conditioned to think that this was acceptable behavior, and didn't think that I had to change. And then when I went to my first US sex ed class, I remember thinking myself, so all these things that I was experiencing, my whole childhood had was like, a really inappropriate thing that should not be going on by any means. And I should have told somebody, you know, because I remember asking in the middle of class, you know, what's the difference between rape and molestation? And I got in trouble.

Rex Hohlbein 53:48

You name it. You got in trouble for asking that question. Yeah,

Dene 53:52

I got sent to the principal's office. I was so confused. And everybody was laughing. And, you know, because they thought it was funny that I was in trouble. But at that time, it just felt like, this is a genuine question. I'm confused. And if I'm going through something like this, I need to know what exactly this is. But they never sent me to a counselor, then we, there was no, nobody took a second look at it. Like it was just like, Okay, you're acting out, kid. Now sit down and, you know, be quiet. I felt really I put myself in a very vulnerable position. And that was the very first time that I had been shamed publicly for for being for being a victim. Right. Not not directly being shamed for that. But but and, you know, it felt like I was and it definitely I don't think that that was right. There should have been a more understanding approach to to it, and instead of like making it a bad thing that I'm bad, maybe explaining to the class like, well, that's a really good question. You know, it's kind of a lot, but we can handle that right now. You know, I got you. Nobody, you know, stops and goes, you know, hey, maybe we should make these kids aware, before it ever gets that far.

Rex Hohlbein 55:31

It is common for folks experiencing trauma in their youth to then have issues later on in life, such as homelessness. I asked Janae if she felt there was a direct connection for her with the struggles she has experienced in that experience, would you say directly led to your drug abuse and homelessness?

Dene 55:51

Yeah, definitely. Very much so directly. Like, that's why I ended up homeless. Yeah, as a result of being homeless and being scared at 13 or 12, or whatever it was, you know, I would use meth to stay awake as long as humanly possible so that I couldn't be abused in my sleep anymore. And then I got delusional and crazy. And so then I started using heroin so I could sleep. And I've got a sleeping disorder that, you know, causes me to scream and cry in my sleep all the time. My boyfriend wakes me up, you know, few, a few nights a week, for sure. You know, because I'm crying or screaming or punching him or, you know, all sorts of kinds of crazy stuff. And this is all directly related. I feel to that those experiences. People just don't don't realize how deep that really goes.

Rex Hohlbein 56:59

Recently, Denae lost her biological father, due to an overdose of fentanyl.

Dene 57:04

My dad died about four months ago. Is your My biological dad. Yeah, he was always good to me. Um, but he was a little physically abusive, and he didn't hit me a lot. You know, when I was a kid, and he he was very temperamental, because he struggled with addiction himself. I didn't realize that till I was much older. But he was outcasted by his family as well as, as me. So we were both treated very similarly. But he struggles with the religion and stuff. He doesn't, he was so lost. And I just felt so bad for him. Because I'm comfortable with where I'm at. I'm comfortable with who I am. I know who I am. But my dad was in his 60s and still didn't know who he was or what he was trying to do. And he was so confused. She was like a child.

Rex Hohlbein 58:02

There have been so many difficult emotional moments in today's life, ones that overlap on to each other. I know she juggles feelings of guilt, and shame, not just for the actions in her own life. But also, in most of the others around her as well.

Dene 58:20

I would, I wouldn't have gone home with my dad, I would have forced him to go to treatment. So that he could still be here. And I would have done what he wanted to do, which is go to meetings with him and be become a positive influence in his life. Because I was so focused on my own shit, I was being selfish, and I truly do feel somewhat responsible for his death. I wanted him so badly to take my daughter camping, and to take her fishing, and do all those things that we did when I was growing up. That I love to do. She'll never get to experience that with him now, and it breaks my heart. And then I found out that my daughter's dad had overdosed as well and died about two months ago.

Unknown Speaker 59:22

I am so sorry. So

Dene 59:26

he kind of just disappeared, you know, and I had no idea what was going on with him. I know he went to prison for a little bit. I wasn't one of his emergency contacts. So when he was in the hospital, he was in a coma, I guess, in the ICU after overdosing. I wanted to go see him but I couldn't without a COVID test proving that I didn't have COVID So I thought I would have a little more time than three days before he passed, but I didn't So I didn't even get to say goodbye, which was kind of hard, but it is what it is.

Rex Hohlbein 1:00:08

Denae is trying hard to get back to the starting line where she can move her life forward. She is actively working on herself and trying to find secure employment. As she says, one with a W two. Above all, she hopes to be a part of her daughter's life to be there for her as a positive figure, to be that person she never had. Where does your drive come from? You think because like, like, I know, you want to get I know you're holding your daughter up as this goal to say I'm going to, I'm going to get my life right. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get back to her. Is that? I mean, can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how are you doing this? Because, honestly, from the outside looking in, it's pretty amazing what you're doing fully at all together, you know, with your health, the addiction that you've you've dropped, navigating. I don't know how you navigate this stuff, honestly. And I'm wondering, how do you how do you do that.

Dene 1:01:10

I'm just figuring it out as I go along. Because these are things I've never done before. I think it's not so much like my daughter as it is like, just setting setting shit, right? For me, because like, I feel I've, I hold like a lot of guilt on my shoulders for like failing my daughter. The last thing I want for her is for her to feel like she wasn't good enough. Because she is more than good enough, she's perfect. And I'm fucked up for not not being able to see that she deserved better than than what I was able to give at the time. That I feel like, there could have been something, you know, really great that could have been out there for her and there still is, you know, but I just want to be a part of that journey for her. And I'm just so honored to have the opportunity to be able to redeem myself. Like the ultimate goal is to get to know her, and to tell her who I am. Because she doesn't know yet. So when the time comes like that I do like that's gonna be a big deal for me, because I've always been kind of like a coward as far as facing difficult, you know, things. I've always kind of like, been less assertive, you know about things and this is something that's going to be a big deal for me taking responsibility for my failures, and, and for my accomplishments.

Rex Hohlbein 1:03:00

Hopefully not too hard on yourself, you've been through a lot.

Dene 1:03:04

Right. But I see so many people that that have been through just as much as I have. And, you know, right now, they're, they're doing what I should have done, you know, years ago. And so I know it can't it could have been done then. And I chose not to because I was being exactly what I really don't like to admit I am but I was being the coward that I was, you know, and I have grown since then. And I've become stronger. And don't feel that fear anymore. So

Rex Hohlbein 1:03:42

happy for you. Yeah. And I want to say from the outside. I don't see any of the coward. I really don't. I'm actually pretty amazed by you, by your by your strength. So I mean that. Thank you. We began this episode with a question asking, why have we not ended homelessness? To answer that question? To answer it truthfully, we need to know are we wanting to end homelessness so that we the housed are not impacted by it? Or do we want to end it so that the folks experiencing it will no longer suffer? Those are two very different reasons. The former looks for solutions to address the symptoms of homelessness with little consideration. For those struggling through it. The ladder dives deeper into the reasons for homelessness in an effort to address root causes focusing on the specific needs and barriers of the homeless. Both approaches, cost lots of money. There is no way around that we can continue to spend funds sweeping the issue under the rug, or we can decide to earnestly invest in our communities by addressing the core issues of those struggling. ending homelessness begins with each of us understanding why we want homelessness to end are we doing it for ourselves or for the homeless? It's an important distinction you know, me now is produced, written and edited by Tomas Vernadsky. And me, Rex Holbein. We would like to thank tunay for graciously and courageously sharing her story, allowing us to get to know her just a little bit more. You know, me now has a Facebook and Instagram page where you can join in on the conversation. We also have a website at WWW dot you know me now.com Where you can see photos of DNA, as well as read other stories of folks we feel you should know. Thanks for listening