Rex Hohlbein 0:00

This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics, including strong language and conditions of human suffering. Listener discretion is advised. There is also a passing reference to suicide. If you yourself are struggling with suicidal thoughts, we want you to know, you're not alone dial or SMS 988 If you need to speak to someone.

Lily 0:28

I'm just confused. And I want to be mad, but I'm just more like sad than anything else. And me going up and screaming at people and telling them how idiotic they are about their choices. It's not going to do anything to put me in jail. I understand that. So I'm not really trying to do that. But I wish I could look at the person who's in charge of this and ask them what like, what was your end goal? Like? What? Why, why are you doing this? What what are you? What are you hoping to accomplish? How does this make you feel like you've done something good if you came here and you saw all the hopelessness in a SAR on people's face, if that person actually had to see.

Rex Hohlbein 1:23

I'm Rex Holbein and in this episode of eunomia. Now, we'll be discussing the controversial government policy of sweeps. If you're not familiar with the term, a sweep is the force disbanding of a homeless encampment on public property. The act of sweeping is typically performed by a combination of police, tow trucks, dumpster trucks, and any other needed government agency to accomplish the task. For example, when parks are involved, often the parks department is included during a sweep. All individuals, regardless of their circumstance or condition, along with all of their personal property are removed from the area. Now this sounds fairly straightforward. Government removing people and belongings from locations where laws have made it illegal to reside. Sweeps are often set into motion when individuals in business and residential neighborhoods complain that the laws are not being enforced. In short, homed individuals reach a tipping point and want something done. This seems reasonable. I think everyone can sympathize with those that have been impacted by a homeless encampment either near their business out front of their home or in the park that they enjoy. It is clearly unfair, that the impact of homelessness should be felt by a few when it is in fact, a larger community issue and responsibility. However, sweeps as a solution have not proven to be an answer to or even a path towards addressing homelessness. Yes, they provide immediate relief to those being impacted. But the issue itself is not being resolved by sweeping only swept to a new location where another neighborhood is then impacted. There is an abundance of information around homelessness. And this includes information about sweeps. Most of it comes in the form of collected data around programs, policies, services, resources, and OES budgets. What gets missed in all of the data is the human being being swept. Nobody is measuring increased levels of trauma or how many steps back are taken in what is already a difficult path to move forward on. For those struggling with homelessness. It is absolutely accurate to say the Sweeps are conducted to benefit the homeless, not the homeless. In a situation where people are illegally living on public land, why should our policies and programs be structured to benefit them? What's wrong with sweeps just benefiting those living legally. To quote many folks living outside when told by the police or the parks department or even groups of citizens to just move along, they often answer with move along to where one of the fundamental flaws with sweeps is that there is no safe place to be swept to. All the land is spoken for. When housing is offered, often it ends up being unavailable or unsuitable to that person's real needs. It is also important to remember that each person living on the street has a profound and true story of why they You're there. Nobody just chooses homelessness. Often, beginning very early in childhood, some form of trauma is experienced knocking them off their life path. While most of us move forward on our journey, working to fulfill our hopes, and dreams, those who have been traumatized spend a great deal of time, just getting back to the start line just trying to survive. For this reason alone, we owe it to those struggling on our streets. If we're going to address homelessness in a meaningful way, our programs need to also fit the needs of the homeless, not just the homes, our actions must be thoughtful, insensitive to not only do no harm, but to also actively provide paths forward. This begins by listening to those living on our streets. In this episode, you'll hear from people who have recent firsthand experience of what it's like to be swept. Also, we talked to a few very passionate folks from stop to sweep Seattle, a mutual aid group who advocate for services over sweeps. Okay, so talking to Lily and tell us where we're at and what's going on. We

Lily 6:17

are at the Stonewall encampment right next to Aurora 120/5 120/5.

Rex Hohlbein 6:26

And what's going on?

Lily 6:27

What's going on is there as an incredibly improper use of funds because the city has decided to sweep an area where there is a homeless encampment, and it's out of the public's way. There's no houses back here. We're not in anybody's driveway. We're not on the streets.

Rex Hohlbein 6:46

I'm behind the wrecking yard,

Lily 6:50

it's behind the wrecking yard and we're not bothering anybody. So I'm not really sure why they decided to appeal everybody's life. But I mean, it's already hard enough as it is being and housed. And then having to deal with being uprooted you know every few days is extremely mentally detrimental. I mean, it's, it makes, it makes things that are hard, even harder. On

Rex Hohlbein 7:22

a sunny August day, I find myself standing next to Lily on a skinny strip of land, running north and south about three blocks long and 50 feet wide. To the west is a chain link fence with a wrecking yard and golf driving range behind and to the east is a green hillside buffer with a mobile home park located above it. We are in North Seattle, just off Highway 99 and it is dusty and hot. Lily is absolutely frantic. The whole scene before us is chaotic. Our conversation is interrupted nearly every other sentence as Lily yells out to friends, checking in if they're okay, or asking what they need. People are desperately working on their vehicles, trying to get them started. In fact, Lily and I, at one point simultaneously moved to the back of a car to help push it onto a trailer as the guy there struggles to keep it from rolling backwards. Looking around, it's obvious that the police have a very heavy presence, I'm guessing. In total, maybe 4050 officers are there. Most of them are just standing and watching the chaos. And I'm wondering, what are they thinking when they see all the upheaval of these lives, I'm assuming it must be difficult for them. Some officers are informing folks to come out of the RVs or tents, letting them know how much time they have left. A few others are directing traffic as people use tow ropes to pull out non running vehicles, tow trucks with flashing lights or towing derelict cars and RVs through a narrow dirt road that runs all through this piece of land. There is a real sense of desperation as people try to salvage what they can of their belongings. city workers are breaking down the makeshift structures, throwing everything into piles that will then be put into the back of dump trucks and taken away. A distraught man on a bike goes by. He has a backpack on undoubtedly containing all of his personal belongings here and there are housed folks who belong to mutual aid groups and nonprofits. Some are talking to campers bringing them coffee and snacks and trying to figure out how they can help. I've seen this so many times and know that there's not much help that can be given at this point. Other than emotional care for those that you can connect with throughout all this Chaos. One of the residents of this camp named Kuba planted a beautiful flower and vegetable garden along the hillside that will undoubtedly also be torn up. In the grand scheme of things. It was a small garden but for this community, it was a big, big deal. I try not to get sucked in emotionally. I have to tell you, it's hard. All these people being uprooted will have a very difficult time in the coming weeks. There is a deep sense of loss. A good many people had created a community here, one that provided connection and safety, one where people were moving forward with their lives. Now it was being disrupted and dismantled. Coming back from visiting Cuba's garden, I find Lily again, she is leaning up against one of the abandoned cars visibly shaken and upset. Unfortunately,

Lily 10:57

they decided that it was necessary to basically just fuck everything up for everybody. And it's crazy, because, you know, I'm not even a politician. I'm not a accountant. I don't I don't deal with distributing funds for the state or the city. But I know that it's frankly, idiotic to have to pay this many police officers for their time. All the the toes that they're gonna have to pay for all the cleanup, when people are just going to take all of the sea air quote, mess and all of the air quote, what would you call it? miscreant behavior. And we're gonna take it away from where it's not bothering anybody, not on anybody's, you know, sidewalk where their kids are trying to play. And you're gonna move in front of you know, somebody's house.

Rex Hohlbein 12:04

not accomplishing anything other than setting everybody back again, is what you're saying.

Lily 12:10

It's not just, you know, two steps forward, three, six steps back, this is more like 10 steps back, one step forward. Oh, wait, there's not even a step forward. This is just costing money, causing trauma, costing money, and not doing a damn thing to help anybody? Well,

Rex Hohlbein 12:30

at the minimum, there's all of the cause and effect, right? You push this many people out of this location, where are all these people going to go? And under another level of stress?

Lily 12:44

I don't see any housing out here. Do you? Do you see any housing was

Rex Hohlbein 12:47

any housing offered to no two people here? Know when

Lily 12:51

they swept behind Lowe's, you want to know how many people got housing, two

Rex Hohlbein 12:54

people out of

Lily 12:57

50 Taking the messes that unhoused Pete like they don't if they don't have a place to put things you're gonna put them outside their RV, it's gonna make a mess. So they're gonna clean up that mess. They're gonna have a bunch of calls, there's people, there's garbage, they're loud, yada, yada. I can't sleep Oh, my God. Ah. And it shouldn't be just like I said, there's going to be a bunch of hysterical people over loud music at night. And they could have just left us back here. Congratulations.

Rex Hohlbein 13:26

How many people are out here? Do you think in this in this village?

Lily 13:33

They said it was 25. But that's incorrect. There's about 100 people back here. So there's going to be 100 people that are sitting in front of your house, doing a bunch of things that you do not want to see, you don't want to see people working on their cars, three o'clock in the morning, using power tools. being loud playing music, we're a lot of night owls. And while all your early birds are going to turn into some permanently exhausted pigeons, because you're not going to get any sleep. What

Rex Hohlbein 14:11

what do you think is going to happen to all these 100 people now? Where are they going to go? Do they even know?

Lily 14:17

They don't know. But they are going to be in front of the communities. Like I said doorstep? Yeah, it's gonna there's gonna be a lot of police calls, there's gonna be a lot of upset there's gonna be a lot of moms and dads that are furious because they're not getting sleep. There's going to be a lot of wasted police resources and city resources. And when they could just use it for housing. They're just like, so they're just being ignorant and the power, the power play, that they think that they're doing is really really really ignorant. Arrogant isn't it there's not enough words that I could use.

Rex Hohlbein 14:59

Why? Do you think this village was targeted? I mean, really, it is out of sight out? You know, it's not the typical spot that you might have a host of residential neighbors or businesses calling. Why do you think this this village was targeted this time? Because they can,

Lily 15:16

they don't like people that are unconventionally housed. When you are unhoused, you have really a target on your back where people treat you with distinction. They belittle you, and view you as less than when I'm sorry to burst some people's bubbles. But if you lost your parents, and you live and you live at your parents house and your parents weren't paying the mortgage, and you just happen to have a room there, you're not quite as independent as you think honey, you can end up in the same position as a lot of people out here, the sum of the amount of people that are living with family is incredibly high. So there's a lot of people that can end up in the same boat a lot sooner. People on the edge. Yeah. Then then they would like to admit,

Rex Hohlbein 16:18

you mentioned unconventional housing. Do you think and I have had this thought often myself, do you think that the city needs to do a much better job of allowing for unconventional housing like alternative forms because we all are so differently mentioned a lot of you are night owls, you know, is you think that the city should have a fabric of housing that accommodates you know, villages like this and cohousing and tents and villages and small structures and RVs. Do you think we should be a city of fabric of of many types of housing to meet all the different needs of people? Yes. And until

Lily 16:58

the higher ups and the people in charge of things, just accept the fact that there's just some people who were a little different. There's some people that have had trauma and experiences in their childhood that was so damaging, that they just can't conform to society's little square of what's supposed to be considered normal.

Rex Hohlbein 17:26

So basically, what people are doing right now is they've got a certain amount of time before, basically the police and the tow agencies are just going to pull everything out of here. Yep. What's the what's the mood of people? Like what are they? Are they angry? Are they just in work mode? Are they hurt? Or are some people gone and gonna come find come back and find your stuff gone? What's what's going on?

Lily 17:51

Everybody? Everybody is a combination. Nobody has time to be angry. Everybody's really just dazed, confused, and hopeless, kind of because people people are walking by on a bicycle, with nothing but their backpack and, and a broken heart. Really. There's a lot of people that put in hundreds of hours making what little they have a home and it's being taken away from them.

Rex Hohlbein 18:22

There's a lot of built structures here. Yeah,

Lily 18:24

there's a lot like a lot of places where they they have regular two by fours structures that have been, you know, covered with plywood, they their floors are hardwood floors with carpet. They have locking doors, they have air conditioning, they have heaters, I mean, like these, these are actual, like tiny homes that people have built. I mean, there's there's fruit and vegetable gardens that were that were built in, they're just gonna tear it all up and throw it away.

Rex Hohlbein 19:04

Was this village visited by services did where they're like did reach and other nonprofits come out here and try to provide services

Lily 19:12

I'm the only thing that really okay, so the the medical van came one time in the year that I I've been around here one time and a year. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 19:25

That's the interval. Next year, it's

Lily 19:28

crazy. You know, if they came every every, they don't even have to come every month every like two, three months. That would be a lot better. You know? Do

Rex Hohlbein 19:36

you think at a curiosity My wife's a nurse, do you think? Do you think if there was a group of a handful of nurses that went from from village to village that would be helpful. Absolutely. People need that type of they

Lily 19:49

do they do because there's a lot of people. We're talking about people that are they're struggling to get by. So there is you No run ins here in there with the law. And so they are afraid to go to hospitals. And so they're not getting the care that they need. And when somebody is afraid to go to the hospital, like there's, this is so gross, but like some people have like infections like staph infection and they get like sores and then you know, they'll they'll give it to other people like I had to go to the doctor, you know, two three times because I was helping people. And you know, I got I got infections, it had to be treated with antibiotics, because I was helping someone else. And I have the, you know, wherewithal and ability to go to the hospital, but I guess some people don't. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 20:49

Did the, the village function as a community where they're the people get along? Did they help each other? Absolutely.

Lily 20:55

Absolutely. Like, it did take a while. But it got to got to a atmosphere where, you know, how there's the typical Oh, go to the neighbor's and borrow a cup of sugar. And you know, that was fun. That I mean, it really happened. And it happened every day, we talked to our neighbors every day.

Rex Hohlbein 21:21

Where they're troublemakers. Of course, there always are, always, but the community was dealing with that.

Lily 21:27

Honestly, there was sometimes love hate relationship, but there was more love than anything else. And when people needed help, people came together as a community. And you don't see that you don't see that in the in regular society. People walked by their neighbors with their nose in the air, and acted like really, nobody matters. Like they don't exist. People stop being people. It's a if you have currency, then you're accepted. But if you don't, then you're less than garbage. And it's disgusting.

Rex Hohlbein 22:18

And what about the rest of the people living here? What what percentage do you think work? This job or that job, whatever. Um,

Lily 22:25

so there's a lot of people that are self employed. Like, there's, there's a few people where they have, you know, a truck, so they do the pallet business where they pick up pallets, and, you know, they get like, seven bucks a pallet or something. So 100 pallets is $700. So they'll do that. And that's actually not bad. And then there's people where, you know, like I said, a lot, a lot more people than you would would think actually have trades as electric or electricians or mechanics or carpentry. So, you know, people just do what they would normally do on a different schedule.

Rex Hohlbein 23:12

So they're just constantly looking for side jobs, labor, labor ready and things like that.

Lily 23:18

There's girls out here who are pregnant, busting their ass on Aurora, just trying to make it work. And yeah, there's a lot of addiction. But addiction is generally because people are self medicating from trauma that they don't want to face. Shit, my dad committed suicide. August 27 is going to be two years and I still like I never did opiates before. For 27 years, and now like I told myself, I would never but now I just almost don't care.

Rex Hohlbein 24:05

Do people in a village such as this? Most of which, as you're saying, are suffering from some form of trauma? Do they do? Do they do a reasonably good job of being there for each other? Or are people so consumed by their own trauma that it's difficult to do that?

Lily 24:22

Absolutely not. They're absolutely there for their neighbors. Somebody sick, somebody helps them somebody needs food, they give them food, somebody needs water, they give them water? What

Rex Hohlbein 24:31

about emotional support? Do they have the bandwidth for that? Absolutely.

Lily 24:36

Absolutely. They do. They will they have and they will in the future. If I if I'm walking by and I'm struggling with something internally, I'll literally have five or six people stop me and say hey, are you okay? Do you want to talk? I'm here for you. Do you need anything and No, no if I if I lived over, you know, when I lived over 2000 Alaskan way on the waterfront, it was it was almost a million dollar condo, I didn't have one person stop and ask Hello, are you okay? How are you doing? Never.

Rex Hohlbein 25:15

You weren't sure resonate with me. I mean, it's like you're speaking a deep truth. And I don't know that our society is even close to wanting to hear that at this point.

Lily 25:27

That would that would, that would mean that someone would have to stop and think, okay, instead of just focusing on making sure that I have access, that I make sure that my neighbors have essentials. People don't want to do that they'd rather have 100 extra things they don't ever use. Then help somebody. And it's disgusting. me as a person, like I can look at myself in the mirror. And I'm actually proud of the person that I am. Yes, I have issues. Yes, there's things that I need to work on, but I am working on them. But I know that I am one of the best people that I know. And that I love the person that I am. And I'm like I said, I'm proud of me. I don't I don't really know if there's a lot of people that can genuinely be honest with themselves. And say that. Thank you, right? Like chromatically How are you doing? Do you think that if the whole you know, pearly gates or whatever, Heaven and Hell, I don't know about all that. But like, I know that. If if there is such a thing? I know I'm good. I've made a few mistakes here and there. I'm human. It'd be ridiculous to say that I haven't. But I know without a doubt have done more good than bad.

Rex Hohlbein 27:05

You know what your heart is? Yeah. It's

Lily 27:10

it's cruel. To just uproot people. People that have had such extensive trauma that they can't function normally, and then tear away any sense of security that they had. It's like they're trying to make people commit suicide. They're trying to make people just crazier than they've ever been.

Rex Hohlbein 27:46

When I asked Lily, what she is going to do next, where she's going to go. She tells me her boyfriend's mom just died. For now, they're going to be living in her mobile home. Another person I would like for you to meet and listen to is Denae. When I first met her seven years ago, she was cruising down University Avenue in the U district on her skateboard with a sketchbook. She was just 19 years old, full of ideas. You wouldn't know it back then. But she was homeless. It hadn't visibly physically taken from her yet. Two years ago, when I met with her at her RV in the sodo neighborhood. She was very ill from multiple infections and failing health due to heavy drug use. She couldn't even get up to walk. When I left her that day. I emotionally said goodbye to a friend. I didn't think I would see again. Since then, though, Denae got herself off heroin through the methadone program, and recently and unbelievably, she now has also quit taking methadone. She is totally drug free. Her body has rewarded her by continually getting healthier and healthier. When we talked for this recording, she was all excited for a job interview she had at the end of the week, you could feel the belief she was finding herself in pulling herself up and out of homelessness. Sweeps come in like hurricanes. Everything not nailed down and secured is wiped away. Gone. People living homeless spend every day preparing for that hurricane worrying about keeping their head above water never getting to the point of nailing things down. Regardless of the steps taken forward. The sweeps knock them back to a place of despair. Denae was caught up in the same sweep as Lilly. In fact, over the last few months, she has been in a series of rapid fire sweeps that have set her back significantly on her journey out of homelessness. Yeah, since we talk last a lot has happened.

Dene 30:01

Yeah, yeah, a lot has,

Rex Hohlbein 30:05

can you tell me I mean, I think let's talk a little bit about sweeps. Because, you know, like, the text message you sent me really describe how much of a setback this has been, can you can you just talk about sweeps, like how these, these sweeps have affected you, from

Dene 30:21

what I understand, they're required to offer alternative housing options. Now, alternative housing options could could consist of like a tiny home, or some other type of shelter are temporary housing option, but since the end of like, the huge pandemic, they stopped offering housing options for people. But they continued doing this are they started doing the sweeps again, it was stopped for a long time, you know, because of COVID and stuff, but they started it up again. And I've had four or five spots swept now. Since since I think we spoke last, since you

Lily 31:15

were at like Union. Yeah, yeah. And I lost, like,

Dene 31:21

a lot of momentum, as far as moving forward with, with my life and my plans, because of, of the sweeps, you know, like, I have to prepare myself find, find another location move to help out help. Not only myself, but you know, my other, you know, I don't know, parking buddies, or whatever you want to call them, you know, and my neighbors, I have to help them too. Because we're, we're a community, you know, and we rely on each other for stuff like that sometimes. And so, you know, it's not like, I just pack up my stuff, and can just go, I feel an obligation and a responsibility. To them, you know, it's a way to try to help them get into a safe location as well. So that takes up like, a lot of time and effort, you know, a lot of homeless people is, you know, have a lot of stuff, you know, and it's hard to get them to get rid of it. And I think that just comes from, like, you know, not having very much so whatever you do have is so precious, you know, gotta hold on to it. Yeah, and anything that, you know, that has a, like, something connected to their past, they want to hold on to, you know, that reminds them of who they weren't, once were. And it's a lot of psychological mindfuck when you're going through that, because you've, you get somewhat stable, and you feel like, okay, now I can start getting my life a little bit in an order. And just as you start to feel like things are coming together in the right place. At the right time for you, you find you get this orange sticker. And, and the crazy thing is, is like the outreach people, they only come around right before the sweeps. They come like as soon as you see one of those outreach people coming through with snacks and goodies, whatever. It's not a good thing, man. It's not that that means you've, you know, that's that's the messenger, you know, what

Rex Hohlbein 33:35

comes next? Yeah,

Dene 33:36

and I come to associate these people that think they're doing good. With a really, with a really negative thing in my mind, because it's true, whenever they start to come around, that's, I feel like the in some way they have to be working with the cops, you know, to coordinate you know, they because they know about all this spots that people park at and stuff. And, and there's a small handful of people that aren't associated with them and that aren't involved in the sweeps, but a good portion of them are and I just like to really stress to people that if you see those people coming around, you know, be very leery because they're probably not there to help you. They're probably there to help themselves and get rid of you, you know, and I lost a lot, you know, 1000s of dollars in art supplies, canvas paintings, you know, I lost everything that I owned my father's you know, after he died, I lost two vehicles. Yeah, it's just been really hard trying to restart over and over and over again is it's hard to get anywhere. And

Rex Hohlbein 34:49

when you say it's, it takes the wind out of your sails or kind of knocks you back down. I mean, I also want to say you are on a really beautiful upward climb. I mean, I know you were or near death? Right, with medical conditions and an addiction. And you're, you're moving through all of that and actually feeling like you were, you were about to make some big strides. Yeah,

Dene 35:13

I felt like I was overcoming, you know, some, some of my lifelong struggles, you know, for once in my life, like, I felt like I was going somewhere, and, and then just to have it all thrown out of whack all over again, it's just kind of disorienting, I'm starting to get my footing again. But, you know, it's just a matter of time before they sweep again. Now, mind you, I every time that I have been swept, I specifically I'm one of the first people that comes out and says, Hey, I need help. Like, I want somewhere to go, I don't want this lifestyle anymore. And like, I need to do something. And I know that. And so I'm, I'm asking for help. You're you're trying to give it but I'm not seeing results. You know, I have yet to talk to anybody about coordinating any sort of housing options. So

Speaker 1 36:12

today, can you walk me through this process of you know, disconnection with regards to getting you help? So let's, I want to set the table a little bit here by saying you've got a spot just before it's being swept. Help comes they offer help. They say, hey, Janay, we're with some organization, we want to see if we can get you some help. You tell them you want to get inside? What happens? Why does that not go somewhere? Do they not have the face say the housing or?

Dene 36:45

Well, that's the thing is they say that? Yeah, we've got we've got a couple couple options for you. We've got 200 tiny homes open and one open in West Seattle. And the other one, Capitol Hill, I think, and we have a group shelters. And I was like, okay, and well, that's it. I don't feel comfortable being in a group shelter. And I feel like, like, that's an unsafe environment for me. And from for the what I have, what little I do have, I can't have there.

Rex Hohlbein 37:22

And people that don't know really a lot about group shelters. Can you explain why it's an unsafe situation for you, um,

Dene 37:30

being a small female on my own, it's just dangerous in general, but with my health, you know, because, as you know, I had my kidneys were shutting shutting down about two years ago, three, two or three years ago, something like that. And I was in really bad condition. Now, my health has improved significantly, but I still am at risk of like, any sort of infection or anything like that can blow up to be a huge deal for me, because that's what my kidney problems came from originally was an was continued exposure to infection, you know, as a result of like, my heroin use, and there's a lot of people that have like, nasty infections. I mean, I'm sure you've seen people with the zombie legs and stuff like that. It's scary. Yeah. You know, if I get something like that, that could potentially put me in a position where I end up on dialysis, you know, and I'd rather not. Yep. And

Rex Hohlbein 38:32

you're still off of your heroin addiction. Yeah, yeah. gratulations.

Dene 38:36

Thanks. Yeah. It's really been awesome. Actually. You

Rex Hohlbein 38:40

look great, too. I mean, you, your whole persona has just grown. Right. Since those times. It's pretty beautiful to see.

Dene 38:50

Yeah, it's really nice that, that I get to experience life like without, without the nod, or the infections or the pain or any of the struggles of being an addict anymore. You know, it's been a huge blessing to me. So

Rex Hohlbein 39:09

you're, you're not even on methadone. No, no, you're just completely free. Yeah. Okay. I gotta give you a high is amazing.

Dene 39:17

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really great. It kind

Rex Hohlbein 39:21

of goes along with this feeling I've had about you since I met you is that this is a young woman that can do anything she wants. I really believe that. You know, and you're proving it.

Dene 39:32

Thank you. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 39:33

So the group shelter. You know, I've heard that from lots of people. It's, there are there's a long list of why people don't go into group shelters. What about the tiny homes? What what's not working for you in that?

Dene 39:48

I actually wouldn't mind a tiny home. But every time that they come and do the sweeps, they only have one or two tiny homes available. And those get I was the first person in line on three separate occasions and still somehow didn't end up with any sort of, you know, a tiny home or anything like that. So I don't know what is going on. I think people are just like, over promising, like, they've got too many people and not enough resources.

Rex Hohlbein 40:25

It's like musical chairs. Yeah, well, people in four chairs.

Dene 40:28

I mean, if there's not enough resources, and too many people are trying to coordinate, it just doesn't work. And that's what I and I've seen, I know that they're having a hard time figuring out how to deal with the homeless, I know they are. Okay, you can tell there's been a lot of careless or progressive thinking people in government lately, you know, state government or whatever, say, city council, whatever. Lately, and the, I don't know how I feel about that. I don't think it's a very, it's not very well thought out, plan, you know, the, the approach they're taking is not, it doesn't work. It's not going to work. You know, right now, things are really bad in Seattle, and I don't see things getting any better anytime soon.

Speaker 1 41:22

In the interim, while looking for solutions and finding that person or or group of people, leaders that can use that money wisely. Our sweeps are in under any kind of view our sweeps acceptable. I mean, does it make sense in any way? Or do you believe like, if you were mayor for the day, would you just stop sweeps completely,

Dene 41:46

I wouldn't stop them completely. Because I know things get out of control. Like, there was a safe parking lot at one point, and that got out of control, you know, but if it was, like, more, more controlled, like the tiny homes, you know, it could be a good thing. Like, I know, tons of people that go out, and they siphon gas and steel, fuck, and tires off people's cars, and they just do that, to be able to move, you know, and so so so, you know, Billy Bob, Joe, Fred wakes up in the morning, and his tires are gone, you know, and he can't get to work and he gets fired. And now he can't feed his fucking kids or whatever. And that's just because this broke person needs a way to move their vehicle,

Rex Hohlbein 42:36

you know, because of the 72 hour rule. Yeah.

Dene 42:39

And if they don't move it, they lose everything they own. Once it goes into Lincoln towing, it's screwed. You know, you're you're never gonna see anything that a value or that, you know, you you held dear to you in your home, again, because people break in there all the time. You know?

Rex Hohlbein 42:56

Yeah. And, and it becomes instantly unaffordable to get it back. Yeah, I mean, you're looking at I think, right at the first day, you're in the four or $500 range, and then it goes up every day.

Dene 43:07

And there's some programs that help people get their vehicles back. But like, realistically, to me, that just seems redundant, and kind of kind of stupid, honestly, because you're taking people's homes, but then you're going to put a program out there, that's going to pay to give those homes back. So you're just trying to make that person's life inconvenient. And to fuck up any sort of, like, Good thing they have just to hurt them is what it seems like to me. Because if, if you're gonna give it back anyways, then

Rex Hohlbein 43:43

just don't take it. Yeah, what did it accomplish?

Dene 43:45

Yeah. Aside from, you know, displacing somebody and, and moving the chaos. And that's what it's all about. I feel like it's like, they just want the chaos to continue, you know, like that, like, everybody's just been so like, complacent about things, because they don't know what to do. Right. That's the thing that really ticks me off about it is, you can't go to an encampment full of 20 or more people and say, I've got two houses, two houses for the whole lot of you. We're going to do a drawing, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 44:25

dress draw straws, and the rest of you scatter. Yeah, yeah.

Dene 44:29

And yeah, good luck. Getting your homes out of here on time because we got tow trucks on the way you know, sorry about your luck, but you you drew the wrong straw. Like, that's not that's not cool.

Speaker 1 44:44

On that note, like what is the heart of the problem? Like at the very, at the very essence of it? What what's not working in our society because it's clearly right. It feels like a round peg in a square hole. Something's not It's not for lack of wanting. I mean, I think if you look at all of community, nobody wants people to be suffering outside. But something there's a disconnect, like, something's not quite right, what? What is it? I

Dene 45:14

think it stems from like, from early childhood and like abuse, whether it be physical, mental, you know, emotional, sexual, it doesn't matter. Abuse In general makes for a broken person, you know, and that broken person will go through their life, harming other people around them, just to feel satisfied that they're not the only one suffering. I don't know a single female that's homeless that hasn't been sexually abused during their childhood. As a matter of fact, I don't know. I'd say probably 75 to maybe 85% of the men that I know that are homeless have been through the same thing. When you think about that, it doesn't sound real to somebody who's never been through that. But it is, it's a very prominent problem. And it's not a lot of times it's shoved under the rug. Although

Rex Hohlbein 46:18

Lily and Denise lifestory are each unique, as all of our stories are, their shared experiences around the trauma of having been swept is not unique. Far from it, in some form, sweeps have traumatized every person having been swept, I

Kimberely 46:39

just came into this situation, because I was an in home nurse. And I was you know, I lived there, free per se, you know, but I was taking care of a client, you were inside. So I didn't have to worry about you know, housing, I had to have home. But she passed away by old age. And of course, you know, all that decided, you know, that all the free home I go goes with it, you know? Yep. So I ended up homeless because I don't make enough for housing. And so it's, it's really, really hard.

Rex Hohlbein 47:19

Yeah. This is Kimberly. At the time, she was living in a tent by Green Lake facing a scheduled sweep that was just a few days away.

Kimberely 47:28

I grew up in Gray's river Washington, it up by Astoria. If you blink, you miss it. Because when I used to live there, hardly any homes, there was all cattle. I was I was really abused and, and molested. And you know, all all the gory stuff, you know, that happened to child, per se happened to me. But I was a single mother raising three children. I had accused severe strokes when I was 26 weeks pregnant with my second child. So it's kind of like I had to deal with a lot AQS

Rex Hohlbein 48:12

you, you know, I've only met you a handful of times. Right? But every time I see you, you're like a really upbeat person. Is that true? I mean, you're I mean,

Kimberely 48:24

I have a good positive. I try. I mean, because life life is only given to you one time. Yeah, you know, and you have to you have to take it as you can, you know, and I'd rather be positives and negative. So, I am an upbeat person and there's there's days that the that I'm not because I'm dealing with cancer. I'm dealing with spinal spinal stenosis, you know, there's things that I'm, I have to cope with. So there's days that I'm just a royal MBI you know,

Rex Hohlbein 49:15

what kind of cancer are you doing? Um,

Kimberely 49:17

I had kidney cancer. They took my my left kidney and esophagus cancer, and it had to do with that acid reflux medication.

Rex Hohlbein 49:28

I want us to pause for a moment to reflect on what we have heard so far from Lily, Denae and Kimberly. Each is on a journey of trying to move their life forward, up and over obstacles with whatever available means at hand. It should sound familiar because it's what we're all trying to do with our lives. There are no exceptions to this. We are all trying to do the best we can. Now the easy assumption or judgment is that Folks who are not producing or not moving ahead in life based on society standards are lazy, or they don't care. And they choose homelessness. The truth is that every person does care and does want their life to be the best it can. We know this, because with the zillions of decisions we all face every day, we all choose what we think is the best for us. At that moment, nobody purposely chooses to make their life harder or to bring more suffering upon themselves. What makes it complicated to understand when considering another person's journey is that each of us have differing available options for moving forward. For those suffering from trauma, this list of available options becomes very small. I asked Kimberly, what she wanted you the listener to know about her situation. So

Kimberely 50:55

it's like I'm not homeless, because I an irresponsible or a needy, drug addict. I mean, I understand there's a lot of people here that have mental issues, physical issues, struggles with things, but these other people out here that gripe about stuff that, oh, I want my park that I was appalled when I seen these fluorescent pink post boards, stuck on the signs down there, saying that we're polluting the lake we're destroying this is destroying that. And I'm like, they're, they're segregating us and not knowing the facts. And the reasons why these people are here. I mean, I'm here because I can't afford the rent. I'm on SSI now, because I have cancer, and I have spinal stenosis, so I can't work anymore. I can't afford the rent here. It's impossible. We even with two incomes that are saying that we still can't afford it is impossible. gotten crazy is so bad, because everything is going up. So that's why we're in this predicament. That's why I love it. I mean, there's people here that work, Haley goes to Georgia go to their job, but they don't make enough to live in a home. I mean, there's people that has issues that they can't stick there, they struggle. And they end up doing new drugs and stuff like that, to cope, to cope well, you know, it's it. It's a, it's a cycle, you know, and the only people that don't know that, and they already put their two cents into it. And not wanting to understand the situation. But then I understand what they're going through too, because they need to pick up their thing they need not leave needles around, they need to make sure that their surroundings are very proper and nice and, and, you know, naked, containable, not gross and bringing a whole bunch of garbage the way I understand their views, because they see that and that's the only thing they see. They don't see other reasonings. They don't understand the reasons why, you know, they just take it out of concept and just cause for us, you know, and that's what it says, Neil, find out the reasonings. Why, instead of already just putting up, you know, knowing you don't know. And then is it I understand both both things is that I understand what they're what they see. And they understand what they see. Couple these people, they can't get a job because they screwed up when they were younger and got felonies? Well, because of that reason, and they want to better their lives and in carry on. They can't because they have they screwed up. And now they can't get something because it's on their record. So of course now because they're the deer can't do it. It's a mental trip. It's a depression because I can't succeed in life because they won't give you a chance. So they're going to be depressed. And there's a cycle. It's

Rex Hohlbein 54:10

a predictable path. If you take somebody's ability to move forward, away, what do you expect

Kimberely 54:17

exactly what he's back. And of course, these people don't see that. Fortunately,

Rex Hohlbein 54:22

there are those that do see past the stereotypes and have banded together to form mutual aid groups to help their fellow neighbors. They see the inequality and the broken systems around us and are trying to develop grassroots networks of people helping people. One such group is stopped a sweep Seattle, I had a chance to sit down with two members of the group to discuss how they see the situation and what motivates them to help both folks you hear wish to remain anonymous.

Tye 54:56

It's one of those things that people in and stop the sweeps always A when you go to one sweep, and it hits you, you can't stop going. I don't even think I knew what sweeps were prior to actually going on. I don't even remember how I got involved. I just remember someone being like this big things happening. I live down the street in my micro studio. I was like, Okay, let me see how it was. And just the violence of the police like 3040 Bike cops, you know, racing through Ballard commons, harassing people, people were just waking up, they seemed really out of it. But I remember nobody brought food or anything, it was just like these people who I just kind of met up with, had brought some like water, some friends had bought harm reduction supplies, because they were going to regularly once I had gone to one, I don't know, I got hooked up with some people through like different messaging apps, and I just started continuously going to them. But it wasn't until like February of this year, we actually like hooked up with stop the sweeps as like, semi organized kind of situation, to actually start going to see this in a more organized way. And it's just yeah, it's something that you can't really stop doing. Once you're

Rex Hohlbein 56:02

you, you recognize him, you can't unsee it. People

Tye 56:05

don't even bring water on the hottest days service providers don't do it. The cops definitely aren't doing it. That was like that's the most important thing we should be doing for each other is like taking care of our most basic needs, even if we don't know how to like, deal with the context of it because I had no idea how often we did sweeps when we first happened. I thought that was like a major deal. Like the city was sweeping. This was like all alerts. And then I find out they're doing it every day every other day like and that was when it was in a dip under during the pandemic under Durkin when they were doing it less regularly than usual because of COVID. Yeah, because of COVID. They have stopped doing it kind of but we're still doing it. So I couldn't even imagine that this was happening in the background of the city that I would like go clubbing in, you know that they were happening even more regularly. And so, you know, since like, February of this year, I've been like very heavily organ like involved in organizing to support folks. Because yeah, I do see the impact on the people that we talk to even if we never see them again. I think even in that moment, it matters. I don't think it's going to solve homelessness. But I do think it alleviates despair just a little bit in that moment to be like a human being is looking at me and seeing me and not just trying to throw me away. Yeah, that's

Rex Hohlbein 57:15

interesting. I think there's two sides to it. One is the effect that humanizing has for the person that has been dehumanized and humanizing also as the effect that it has on people who are dehumanizing others, both sides, it's important for both sides, right? Because, because I think without if we keep if we keep dehumanizing, people just aren't going to get involved. That means that's what we do for our wars. Right? We first before we attack a country, we dehumanize them, you know, and then and then we all feel okay about it for some bizarre reason.

Speaker 2 57:49

I'm a first generation immigrant, although I did grow up in the states from a very young age. And so I grew up in like this whole like, oh, of United States, you know, the roads or roads are paved in gold. And this is like, land of the free and all of that. So I grew up believing like, oh, yeah, I can finally vote in this, you know, I'm doing my part. And, you know, this is all that I have to do. And I'm I'm obviously learning and the last several years at least, that you cannot depend on the government, you cannot depend on nonprofits, you cannot depend on foundations. It's because they essentially are rooted from their rooted from the bottom line of like, money, status, whatever it is, so Okay, yeah. So you got to vote. You got to like, choose your lesser evil, which really sucks, right? And it's a it's a fucked up system, that I really am just so it sucks. And it just enrages me that this is this is like, here's your choices. And we're so screwed now. Fucking Biden. We're like, Oh, yay, get fucking Trump out of there. And now, all the fucking libs are like, okay, my work is done. And we're it. It still sucks. It's still terrible. He's going to add another 100,000 Cops across the country, or is it even Oh million? Yeah, it's good. I don't know. Too many. Too many. So but I guess I say that because I guess I myself have been identifying more in that realm where I'm like, This is not sustainable. I have always tried to look at whatever government programs whatever, not like to try and scramble some type of resources for people I've been working with. And it's not fucking enough. There's so many churches, there's so many service providers. Why is it that there's so many out there but yet here we are? Vince not it's just not the answer. I say that because I mean we're here trying to connect with people who are being displaced, who are going through just the layers of trauma of like just trying to survive on the streets. And I see the complicity, that I know I have fallen into for many years, because I'm like, Oh, well, I'm doing my part. And you know, oh, well, they don't want to take, you know, they don't want to do what they're supposed to do. And I just see how all our institutions are essentially built to just make sure that you comply and just sort of fit within your cog of the wheel. So that you could be your worker bee churn out your, you know, product for the company, things like that. So I, I don't know how we start to try to impact that. But I do agree that community is the key to start there. And more people have to be fucking angry, more people have to wake up and pay attention. Instead of like, turning their noses at people who are living and just thinking they're all fucking drug addicts. They're all, you know, just losers and criminals. That that is what when, when we're there, and people are getting displaced, and then we come upon those people who think, you know, for fun, they should gawk and take pictures and think, oh, yeah, this is great. It's really, it's, you really start feeling like, wow, the human race saw some human race. Yeah, it just really makes you feel like, wow, we've lost our humanity. It's really, like, dire and how can we try to, to try to break out of that whole, like, well, I just want my piece of the pie, right? I just want my piece of the pie. And I'm just gonna, you know, take care of just my own and not realize how, how more of a community makes us safer, right? Like people think, Oh, these sweeps, that's what we need to do. Because, you know, it's going to help our community be safer, but in actuality, it does it. It causes more violence, it caught it, it really, it makes the community less safe. And people don't realize that because they think, oh, yeah, it's all cleaned up, and I don't see all the garbage or anything pushed to another. Yeah, it's just shoved and swept under the rug. And I think, for us as a group, I mean, we're there as like, trying to, again, you know, pick up the pieces and try to help those folks who are still left standing or have, you know, salvage whatever belongings they want. But how can we push against the system? And I think we do realize, right, we do realize that there has to be some part as far as working with I don't know if it's the powers that be, or at least some of the service providers who do have at least more, maybe say, or impact or whatnot. But I think that's sort of where we're at, as a group trying to figure that out for us and stop the sweeps, we, we basically follow the lead of what people want to do. And consent is really important, right? If a person does not want to take any of the offers that either hope is giving, which is essentially just like a bed, or like a tiny house village, which is a shed, I mean, that's a shed, I mean, I I hear that from service providers, well, they don't want to take what I have to offer. So you know, it's their fault. And, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 1:03:47

as opposed to saying, maybe what I'm offering isn't the right thing for the

Speaker 2 1:03:52

fleet, like, I guess, me having been a social worker, I see how the mentality of like, if they are not conforming to what we want them to do, to work within our system here and what we are providing them then, well, too bad. You know, we go out there because we see that there is there is a need that's not being fulfilled by service providers by by the government. We're essentially picking up the pieces of those people that are either falling through the cracks, or, you know, they don't want to stay in a shelter to get bedbugs to be assaulted and harassed and belongings to be stolen or like they can only bring two bags in or they have to split from their partner and so we're, yeah, so we are picking up the pieces every

Rex Hohlbein 1:04:48

person that's outside, not in shelter, you will find a reason for why they don't want to be in shelter, right? Like I mean, it's not like people just say, Oh, I don't want to go into a shelter. cuz I'm what I don't know I love suffering, they are saying no, because they have a very profound reason to be outside in the winter, when it's cold as hell, you've,

Speaker 2 1:05:11

you've got to think about what they're Yes. Like, why can't you switch that thinking of like, there's got to be something majorly messed up with my offers, if this person is choosing this, because everyone's like, well, no one should live like that. And it's like, well, yeah, no shit, why do you feel, you know, why is it that they would prefer to live outside here, instead of this? I guess shelter enhanced shelter, even the enhanced shelter is not something that people want. And so, you know, we're forcing people to fit within this, like, the square box, even though it doesn't fit for them. And so but we blame them. And so I feel like our group, you know, we're there to, yes, not only meet people where they're at, because it's like, Hey, we're here to help you and what you want to do, but obviously, ensure that they, you know, if they want to talk to any of the service providers that are there, and make sure that they, you know, have that that opportunity. And if not, we're we're there to, you know, I guess pick up the pieces, because these are the folks that fall through the cracks. Yet,

Tye 1:06:26

you said something about, like, it's interesting when you said we follow their lead. And I think that that's where I keep thinking back to like radical action, it's like, in in the problem itself is the explanation of why it exists. Like when we talk about the indication, the fact alone that people sleep outside should tell you that shelter isn't adequate. The fact that like, they, we so many people work backwards and say that clearly, sleeping outside is so easy that they must be turning down so many good offers, doesn't. That's where I feel like the context is missing. Because especially after spending the night out on Fourth Avenue, I feel like even if I were felt unsafe, I might go to a shelter. Like that was a really hard thing to do. So it's like, you have to like realize, like people, the existence of people living straight up on the sidewalk tells you that the system is broken, not because they could be choosing that but because we are providing such disgusting, manipulative, harmful alternatives, that people are that that's what they're resorting to, I think that in itself, the failures of the shelter in the housing industry,

Speaker 1 1:07:32

absolutely. The the thing that I always tell people is, every human being in every nanosecond, we all do this, we pick the option that is best for us, like in every second now that might not be the best option, like somebody a ways away might say, that's not gonna work out so well for you. But, but we all do this, nobody purposely has two options and says, I'm going to pick this one because it's going to fuck me up. Right? Like people, people try to pick the best. So somebody is choosing to be on the street, it is telling exactly what you just said, they have already assessed that it is a better option for them to be on the street than to be in the options that are being afforded me through the health through the housing system.

Speaker 2 1:08:13

I remember moving a 55 year old man with neuropathy. And he didn't want to take a shelter because he needed to conform to the rules and not be actively using and so, you know, here I am helping someone relocate with dead rats on the ground. And I was just like, What the fuck is happening here? How in this country? Are is this fucking happening? It just like really fucked me up. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of us continue to do this and show up because we see like, this is so utterly fucked up. Yeah. And that this is just so wrong of why. And I'm not saying that we have the answer to, you know, answering that why, but it's just so messed up. And I think, recently, it's just been so hard with these sweeps, where you just see the anguish of people being displaced. And there's, you know, there's just simply no reason for this. And one of the most affluent cities in the world, just simply no reason for this. And I think that's why I at least am called to this, because I'm just done fucking turning away. I'm done. Fucking like living in a bubble. I'm done. Not doing something. And whether it's just simply, you know, helping someone salvages as much of their belongings and they're like, Oh my God, thank you so much I can't believe, you know, like, I mean, not that I need that thinks it's just, you know, it's just like fucking being human, you know, is just having some humanity. And we unfortunately cannot fight against armed police that show up at every sweep to protect the fucking Park workers like, it's just kind of ridiculous to see this, that they're there to protect them. And so, and unfortunately, because of that, that's why you will have a lot of people that will not take talk to any of the service providers either because they're like, the cops are here, I can't stay like it really causes the, the, the the more chaos. I mean, they just, you know, it's it's part of the barrier that the city is intentionally putting out there with the police with parks. It's just ridiculous that people don't see that. They don't see that. And they just see like, oh, well, they just don't want to help. Bullshit, they just don't want to be intimidated and threatened by police. And they do want the outreach, they do want the services, they do want connection. But when they see seven cops approaching, it scares people, and they don't want to stay. We have to imagine because we are so stuck within like only what we know, in this society, and all we know is like, Oh, the government can help or these nonprofits or, you know, whatnot. So we have to really imagine and I think that's part of the beauty of abolition that, you know, if we don't imagine, then, you know, that's, that's our biggest barrier. So I guess what I see, I guess what I imagine is that, from the very beginning, that every single family has enough of what they need as far as just just being able to thrive, whether it's housing security, food security, job opportunities, that are not going to bog them down, but the ability to also live a life of like, creativity, and, and, and, and freedom and connection to community and not just working or like grind of, you know, to pay the bills. So I guess I imagine that we live in a society where we are all connected, where we know our neighbors, where we know each other, where we can help each other in addressing harms. I mean, look, right here, we've got these families and these kids who are just playing, and just living. And, and I guess what I want is just a community where we don't have to fight each other for the scraps of what we're thrown. Right? We don't fight each other for that. And we realize that I don't need to, you know, hoard all this stuff, because I know community is going to help me as well. And I don't need to hoard all this money, or this food just for me or my family. And that, you know, we're all in this together. And I feel like starting from that, and that route, we're we're going to ward off just the societal ills that we're seeing right now. Right? We see that crime, I guess, crime and quotations. When you have a community that cares for each other, then you don't have as much crime. You, you know, when we when we care for each other when we can and, and address those harms instead of just like sweeping them under the rug or just saying, oh, somebody just needs to go to jail, I guess is sort of maybe what I'm envisioning, envisioning, and I feel like, part of me, I'm like, That doesn't seem like a big ask. Right? It doesn't. But why is that so, so hard? It's because of the fact that we are pitted against each other for the scraps that were thrown, that we need to always buy, buy, buy this next great thing. You know, you're only worth what you you know, your house, the house you live in, or the clothes you wear or the car you drive. And so I guess my hope is that I imagine a society that we do not live within that and we are all happy with you know, what we have and that it is enough. We're not like in this materialistic world and I know that's like, that's digging deep.

Daniel "Q" 1:14:43

I'd find all around nobody wants to build themselves on the homeless you don't want to be around around people.

Rex Hohlbein 1:14:50

Yeah, actually never heard. It said that way and it makes sense, right? Like you're outside struggling and you. You don't want to be alone during that you want to be around people. are homeless

Daniel "Q" 1:15:00

folks tough, it's hard. I will also say this

Rex Hohlbein 1:15:04

is a young gentleman that goes by the street name Q. Lily introduced him to me a few weeks ago after the Aurora sweep, the one Lily spoke of earlier in the episode. I wanted to get a better idea of the community that existed there before it was dismantled and how it affected the folks who were displaced. Now, I want to give some quick background for context, que worked as a union roofer, he fell into homelessness, after the double setback of a divorce and losing his job at work. He had been unable to attend the unnecessary classes that his employer required of him to take. Currently, his injuries are preventing him from maintaining a solid job. And since COVID, arrived, he has had a hard time getting back on track. He has been homeless for about two and a half years. And was the was the community. In your in your opinion? Was it functioning as a community? Yeah,

Daniel "Q" 1:16:00

it was people Yeah, it was actually thriving. It was a neighborhood. You know, different diverse people coming together. Like it was cool. We'd always help each other. The main thing was,

Rex Hohlbein 1:16:12

yeah, how many people do you think we're living in that? It was a long it's a long corridor there. Yeah.

Daniel "Q" 1:16:21

It was like highly people would you guess at least 100 Maybe a little less. Third toes are leaving a little lie. Oh, the row of Arby's like there and tents and houses that we built many homes like we built how many homes they say none. I got lands I'm incorporated and they took it I think they kicked us off it wasn't even sheriff's to kick it off. It's cops that came and kicked it off. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 1:16:43

So he lived in a year in in a tent in this in this village. Can you describe the feeling of living in a village village

Daniel "Q" 1:16:54

both cool and fun when you get together and solve problems kind of try to so

Rex Hohlbein 1:17:01

people would help other people with solving problems such as food

Daniel "Q" 1:17:07

clothing, housing, I mean just like helping tents and stuff. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 1:17:10

Yeah,

Daniel "Q" 1:17:11

all that stuff like it was like it was cool good and then we literally stole from each other now and it was good. And then police came in with slippers and to leave and after we have made home so that long like a long time. Been no long time. You know, and then people gonna come tell us to leave and and tell our shit or stuff. I don't know why.

Rex Hohlbein 1:17:31

So where are you staying?

Daniel "Q" 1:17:33

About? Like, I'm like, really camp over there. I'd be saying that as a Catholic guy bought me a hotel room. That was cool for the second like three days. And yeah, I don't know yet.

Rex Hohlbein 1:17:48

What about your girlfriend? Is she with you?

Daniel "Q" 1:17:51

Yeah, she's like the whole time. Everything I'm explained which is crazy. And I like can't really work but I try it hurts like to work like it hurts my neck hurts my leg now. I tape Oh my curtain hurts.

Rex Hohlbein 1:18:09

How old are you? 3232 And did you grew up in Seattle area? Yeah. Did you graduate from high school?

Daniel "Q" 1:18:20

Yep sure to

Rex Hohlbein 1:18:24

what what was in the RV that that you lost

Daniel "Q" 1:18:27

everything all my clothes everything so you just

Rex Hohlbein 1:18:31

you have nothing now

Daniel "Q" 1:18:32

I have a backpack backpack full of little bit of tools

Rex Hohlbein 1:18:40

but tools to work on cars Yeah. So you you got a skill on as a mechanic and that way

Daniel "Q" 1:18:47

I like it I enjoy it. It's kind of fun. Trying to make things go and inviting them when you do driving and when you do get them going right

Rex Hohlbein 1:18:55

it's just sense of accomplishment. I

Daniel "Q" 1:18:57

guess. Yeah, right. But really issues in the sense of you get to use it No Yeah, it's practical to yeah very viable and need to always have a large mechanical homeboys happened so

Rex Hohlbein 1:19:09

you're 32 You've got a backpack a girlfriend when next

Daniel "Q" 1:19:16

I'm sure try to get money to get money around just live life

Rex Hohlbein 1:19:24

are you going to look for another village? Are you going to I mean because rent it'd be pretty tough to pay rent

Daniel "Q" 1:19:30

Well I'm very good at my disability check me right do that but don't another bill at village would be cool. I mean to just because I mean I just don't know where Yeah. For like a built out whatnot. It tore down twice.

Rex Hohlbein 1:19:46

Tell me what's beautiful. The maybe people that are home that are in homes wouldn't see the beauty that you see. What do you see when you're living there?

Daniel "Q" 1:19:55

I mean about other places, but there we were trying to build an established sweet spot. Did you know like arms,

Rex Hohlbein 1:20:02

like can be some of the little nuances that are beautiful of living there? Like, like what made it? What made it a place that you wanted to be?

Daniel "Q" 1:20:13

The freedom we used come and go talk to people, they come to freedom. Just coming and going. Talking to people was always fun.

Rex Hohlbein 1:20:22

Did you feel loved there?

Daniel "Q" 1:20:24

I mean, yeah, nice people. I mean, there's nice people in Seattle. We're all nice. But really, if you give faith in humanity, you might be good. Don't go to fight looks, Michael. You know,

Rex Hohlbein 1:20:36

don't judge by the looks for sure. If you know, a lot of people that are living in homes are going to listen to this. What should people know about sweeps?

Daniel "Q" 1:20:47

Cops are ruthless. They're in the coffin of the city. That is their wish list. They're gonna have their way no matter what. And they take everything from you. And sweeps are I don't know why they're doing them exactly. Just to when they should be giving out housing or helping instead of sleeping in town to get out. You know, like, what are you going to tell us to go to why the homeless like where we were gonna go guys? Exactly. Your nose like it's sleep stages. It's one put people in jail. Maybe Maybe that's what it is somehow. I'm not sure. But it's like they sleep to the left and to the right. It's not like we go anywhere really quick. I don't wanna go. You know? I don't know. Sleeps are no good. They may make you guys look may look better when you're walking around looking around, maybe. But it affects people's lives. Tough. Just so you guys could appreciate the landscape, or whatnot. Obviously, you just have a good view gives the language you see or something just because of stereotypical habits. I don't know what what makes people think things should be a certain way.

Rex Hohlbein 1:21:56

Yeah, clean it up, make it go out of sight out of mind type stuff. cleaning

Daniel "Q" 1:22:00

it up is just what they're worried about. They don't want to anything that looks dirty there, which is an opinion by

Rex Hohlbein 1:22:07

just to you that that village was beautiful.

Daniel "Q" 1:22:11

It was thriving. It was cool. It's coming up with a good neighborhood called Village neighborhood. Whatever you want.

Rex Hohlbein 1:22:16

How has this affected you emotionally? devastating

Daniel "Q" 1:22:19

effects. I'm nowhere to go and do I mean look forward to I would go sucks. Trying to figure it out. But then what is separate all the friends that I had the honor to so now we don't have no spot to come hang out meet up or you know, freezing to come together? I don't know. We didn't come together now. It's kind of hard.

Rex Hohlbein 1:22:43

Where did everybody go? This scattered? Yeah.

Daniel "Q" 1:22:49

Yeah, I'm not exactly

Rex Hohlbein 1:22:50

sure. In Do you have a cell phone?

Daniel "Q" 1:22:54

Yeah, I just got one. I mean, they do but I mean, they don't? Yeah, yeah. Homeless is just the title. And we were really just like that if you stay up, stay busy all day. It's not like you're homeless. You're doing stuff. Holic retangular sleep when it sucks.

Rex Hohlbein 1:23:15

I left my conversation with Q asking myself, What would I do if I was in his shoes? If I was really living his life and his available options? How would I know which direction I should go? Or even what my next steps should be? One of my favorite expressions is fell off the horse nine times got back on 10. But if I was in queue situation, would I be able to get back on that horse? One of the very good friends I've made getting to know folks living outside is dizzy. You might remember him from the eunomia now episode titled being dizzy. If you haven't listened to it, please check it out. I think you'll enjoy it. Dizzy, has been chronically homeless for many years and has experienced a great deal. Through it all. He has managed to stay thoughtful and positive. And I really value his opinions on these difficult topics. So does he we've had lots of conversations and I know you you always you do. I in my opinion, you do this good job of balancing the discussion by well there's this side but then there's also this side and where

Dizzy 1:24:28

there always is you know, you can't just be for letting homeless people just run amok and be where they want to be and do whatever they want to do because a lot of homeless people are fucked up individuals. And but a lot of them aren't you know, as

Rex Hohlbein 1:24:44

there are fucked up individuals living inside Yeah, the same. Yeah.

Dizzy 1:24:49

From home she will poop on the sidewalk and pick up individual poop in the toilet.

Rex Hohlbein 1:24:54

One of the differences what so so like, that's it

Dizzy 1:24:59

Somebody had never pooped on the sidewalk.

Rex Hohlbein 1:25:03

Good to know. So what what do you do about what you just said that there has to be some rule rules about where people can live and can't? And how do you define that? Because you also said in the same breath earlier, that everyone needs a place to live? Yeah. How do you define that?

Dizzy 1:25:22

You know, I don't know, I know that if, if that's probably why I'll never have a bunch of money. If I had money, like, say, a Bill Gates or something like that. I would just buy a big ass building and just let people live in it, you know, couple of simple rules. But then, you know, there still may be people that break those rules, they can't even live with the, the free place, you know, and I mean, eventually, with some people, some people and not not a huge quantity of women at all, you know, you know, and I hate to say this, because you say some of them make this in this, people are just fully ready to just jump on the bandwagon and do terribly. But some homeless people do need to be institutionalized. They're just not going to fit in anywhere. They're just I don't know, if they're mentally ill. Or, you know, a lot of times it has to do with addiction, you know, which is a mental illness. But it's really tough. You know, it's really tough. I just, I think it's weird, you know, that some, some people will just have so much and somebody will have nothing, you know, yeah, it's just so

Rex Hohlbein 1:26:18

it's unconscionable. I don't I don't understand it. Yeah,

Dizzy 1:26:21

and, like a cave, Seattle, we have our homeless problem, you know, but like in the 90s there were homeless people but you could still get a place to live for for 600 bucks, you know, a room somewhere in a house or, or like some shitty little studio apartment, you know, for somewhere between four and 800 bucks, you know, basement

Rex Hohlbein 1:26:42

basement apartment or something,

Dizzy 1:26:44

you know, or something, you know, but like the place that place on Capitol Hill where I used to me and a guy used to pay 600 bucks a month for this two bedroom, and we'd rent up this this one hall closet was so big that we'd rent that out for like, 100 bucks, you know, to whoever, you know, we got apartment now is like $3,000 a month? Yeah. What What year was it when it was? Was like 92? Yeah. But I needed it stayed that way for it got renovated, I think around 2000 or something, you know, and wrenched jack up, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 1:27:20

so dizzy. What should the city do? Right? Like, they're stuck in this rock and a hard spot of businesses and neighborhoods saying, Get this out of the out of my face. Another

Dizzy 1:27:31

thing I don't understand is how okay, there's like how many homeless people in Seattle? I do you remember what the last count was? Or something? Roughly.

Rex Hohlbein 1:27:41

I always, to be honest, I mixed up the Seattle and King County counts. But either way, but But So King County, I think it was like 40,000 people, okay,

Dizzy 1:27:50

40,000 people, and now put $40 million at the end the problem? It seems if you took those 40,000 people and divide that $40 million between them, they can all get a place to live, but they can't solve it with 40 million or however many millions of dollars. And like when you hear that the amount that they put into it. There's no way you can get a place for all these people with that money. Yeah, you know, and I guess it's all going to drop cracy or, you know,

Rex Hohlbein 1:28:13

some of it but also, as you also know that the issue is more complicated than just housing, there's addiction, there's mental health. Yeah, there's, you know, crime. There's, there's just a whole gambit of I choose

Dizzy 1:28:27

the housing first concept vote. Yep. But there has to be, I guess, some limit, you know, like, okay, let's say that we do housing first, and everybody gets house, there's people that are gonna get kicked out of that there she was gonna leave that there's people that are still going to end up homeless even if your house everybody, there's still people that are gonna end up homeless one way or another, you know, and what do you do then?

Rex Hohlbein 1:28:50

So back to the question of the city is pretty aggressively sweeping right now. Are they under the mayor new mayor, right? They're, they're really, I actually just this, this,

Dizzy 1:29:04

what are they doing with those people? Well, it's

Rex Hohlbein 1:29:07

the same as you said earlier, they're promising to get them into housing, but then a small amount go into housing. So the question is, you know, for the city, do I know that you can't just say black and white sweeps or no sweeps? I know, it's complicated. But But what do you do? You know, because the other thing about sweeps, which, which we know is, people are finding these tucked away places to set up villages, the one on Aurora, and 120/5 that just got swept super tucked away between an embankment and a auto parts home junkyard camp. Yeah, it was a homeless camp and it got swept, and, and it was super out of the way. Right, just off Aurora 120/5. It

Dizzy 1:29:51

must have been a nuisance to somebody though. To them if you can find out about each

Rex Hohlbein 1:29:54

Absolutely, I'm sure that's true. But but the question is Do you sweep or don't you sweep? And one of the issues, I could see that you could say you could take a stand on not saying it's right. But yeah, you could take a stand and say, hey, no sweeps, and where the where the villages are, we're going to take resources to help those people, we're going to set up party, Santa can types, we're going to provide garbage cans. And however the business or the neighborhoods getting impacted, we're going to use funds to try to alleviate that impact, until we can get all of these people housed.

Dizzy 1:30:34

Also, you got to be fair, it's somewhat fair, but you also have you have to tell the people, okay, we're going to do this, here's your one, here's a chance, you get one more strike one more time, you fucking this up. And then the time after that, you're gone? And what isn't you? And once because, I mean, if they weren't getting canceled, look, you know, there's there's syringes all over the place, there's crime going on here. Either police yourselves, you know, take care of the fuck ups, or we're going to toss you out, you know, or, you know, and then they least gave him a chance, you know, to clean it up. I mean, a lot of them would throw that away, but I'm sure there's some were some people go, you know, I got my little thing here. And I really don't want to lose it. You know, and, like

Rex Hohlbein 1:31:17

you said, a percentage will take it, but probably I would guess, like, let's say you had 100 People at an encampment like that, maybe 25 could walk into housing and make it work. That's a random guess. Yeah. But I would say 75 would be in some state of being unable to actually act on any kind of hand up, because because the hand up isn't quite appropriate, or exactly what they need in that moment, like,

Dizzy 1:31:48

and more they act on it, and then trade it for dope, you know, or whatever, you know, so

Rex Hohlbein 1:31:52

you got to you got to get this more than 50% of the people in that encampment that are not going to be able to fit over

Dizzy 1:31:59

place downtown, where they've housed a bunch of homeless people there. And a friend of mine, at one time was a drug dealer there. And so he was acquiring things, and he would trade things for drugs. And he ended up renting some another Homeless Person's apartment to store shit in, you know, in trade for drugs. So they're, they're taken in there, and then they're out on the street, you know? Yeah. Because they've sold their apartment to a drug dealer. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 1:32:27

Are we just always going to have this problem? And it's always gonna be like a, like a shell game. You're just kind of moving stuff around. And a certain percentage? I don't

Dizzy 1:32:34

know, have we always had this problem in one way or another?

Rex Hohlbein 1:32:36

Yeah, it's a good question. You just said in the 90s. We certainly didn't,

Dizzy 1:32:39

you know, well, I mean, there were homeless people. But we didn't have like the scale of this problem. But no,

Rex Hohlbein 1:32:45

I grew up here. And we never had this problem until probably starting 1520 years ago. The the other side of this is that sweeps are hugely traumatic for people. They're

Dizzy 1:32:58

really hurtful. And they're not free. They're.

Rex Hohlbein 1:33:01

And they're not free. They're extremely costly. On the Aurora sweep. I would guess there might have been 50 Cops there. Yeah. They weren't there volunteering. Yeah,

Dizzy 1:33:12

well, yeah. When how many were on overtime? Well, I mean, I'd like down 300 officers right now to you know, so yeah.

Speaker 1 1:33:20

I wonder also, like how differently we would view encampments if the city provided garbage and

Rex Hohlbein 1:33:32

cans, Santa cans. I mean, I wonder if people would get and sharps containers. I wonder if the I wonder if people would get as upset and, and make the phone calls the constant calls to the city about needing to do something, if in fact, garbage sharps containers, and Santa cans were actually provided to those encampments. And

Dizzy 1:33:55

he could provide all that and people are if if they are in fact committing crime, if they're still committing crime to get their dope money. That's not gonna make any difference. You know, or now, this is one place I go to, and there's this woman there who's she constantly asked me for a cigarette and some changes and, and, and I give it to her, but at first I've told her no, but didn't I just I just started to have some compassion for her. But she kind of messed up, you know, and her face is usually dirty with a few like sores and I, you know, that probably says probably some people who just are appalled by that who would complain, you know? I mean, she's really not hurting anybody but herself. But I don't know. I don't know. You know, these questions are like, I know this. Stupid microphone makes you conscious about things. We're all here for such a short time. We really don't have time to be shitting on each other.

Rex Hohlbein 1:35:04

make me cry now my friend. Yeah, that's that's the that's the honest truth. We don't have time to be shitty to each other. I think I yeah, thank you for saying that

Dizzy 1:35:15

cut. I hate your guts.

Rex Hohlbein 1:35:18

I think you know, I think the problem was sweeps, quite frankly, the problem with homelessness. It's It's so fucking complex, that it, it kind of defies standard solutions. And and I think sometimes we forget that we need to set some, some bars, some lines in the sand that that actually talk about what you just said like, Okay, we don't know how to solve it, it is complex. People are

Dizzy 1:35:46

chronic, but there's so much of it. Yep. But but we've,

Rex Hohlbein 1:35:50

I think one of the things we have to say is, throughout it, throughout searching for the solution, we can't be shitty to each other, you know, we got to hold a bar, a certain height of the bar that says, Look, we might not be able to figure this out as quickly as we need or want to, for everybody on both sides. But in the process, we can't be shitty to each other.

Dizzy 1:36:11

Yes, that's a must have the privilege to not be shitty, you know? I mean, like homeless people can be shitty to you know, but a lot of times until like, some kindness has visited upon them. They don't even know they're being shady. They just think they're grappling with the world, you know?

Rex Hohlbein 1:36:28

Yeah. I thought a lot about that, with regards to being compassionate when you when you have so much extra, it's easy to be compassionate like you can you can even get a little high and mighty on yourself by saying, Look how good I am. Yeah. But will you be that good? When you have your basic needs taken from you? Will you can you still be good? And I think we have to remember that is that privilege. And resources allow you to be compassionate, and and I think thinking about that is important. You know, like do I need to do with all my privilege do I need to make you leave, where you're setting up home and trying to survive? And I'm not saying that we should just let everybody be wherever they want. But at the same time, not being shitty to each other, I think is a is a really important line to hold.

Dizzy 1:37:24

Yep. Until you walk them out somebody else's shoes. It's not as simple as you get a job. Boom. It's not that simple. Yeah. Can I go now?

Rex Hohlbein 1:37:39

Dizzy. I love you, buddy. Thanks for sharing all that. Yeah. Thank you for joining us today. I want to end by leaving you with an interesting comment to ponder from former Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn who said the following in the documentary film trickled downtown,

Speaker 3 1:37:57

you know, something really fundamental has happened that I don't get, which is, you know, if you look at any culture, human culture, for millennia, upon millennia, people were able to where they live construct shelter out of the materials at hand to to take care of themselves, you know, whether it was, you know, peat and mud house and you know, Ireland or, you know, or a teepee, or a native mod, or NATO wood, whatever it was, you could do that. We've literally made that illegal in the city of Seattle, we made that illegal across the country. Now, if you want to build something to shelter people, you have to get a permit, you got to follow the rules, you got to follow the code, you got to spend a lot of money. And we tell people when you can't do that. And you know, you can only build so much housing in certain places. So how did we get to a point in our society, where you can't build a house? Like what's more human than that? You know, I don't know, friendship, companionship of food. You know, this is what people do, we come together, and we build communities, and that includes shelter. This is what we do. This is what we're genetically designed to do. And we've said, Well, if you're not wealthy enough, if you if you can't get a house, like the one I'm sitting in right now, if you can't get an apartment building that meets our criteria, not those dingy, single room occupancy, hotels, but but a nice apartment building, you know, those are the ones we want, and a nice single five, you can't build that and afford that. You can't have any of that. That's where we've come to in our society. And that's a tremendous failure. That's a it's a it's a moral failure. It's a community failure. It's a political failure. but it's a failure at every level. When we basically say, you don't deserve a place to live because you don't, you know, meet our standards

Rex Hohlbein 1:40:11

you know me now podcast is produced, written and edited by Tomas Vernadsky. And me, Rex Holbein. We would like to give a big thank you to Lily, Denae, Kimberly Q and Izzy. As well as the anonymous volunteers from stop the sweep Seattle mutual aid group for taking the time to speak to us. You know me now has a Facebook page where you can join the conversation and a website at WWW dot you know me now.com Where you can see photos and videos of the aurora sweep as well as put faces to the voices you heard today. Under the episode page, we included links to Seattle based organizations and aid groups where you can get involved by volunteering your time and or donating needed supplies.