EPISODE TRANSCRIPT FOR EP19: The Stone Dancer
(AI / AUTO GENERATED)

Rex Hohlbein 0:01

This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics and strong language. Listener discretion is advised. There is also a reference to suicide. If you yourself are struggling with suicidal thoughts, we want you to know you're not alone dial or SMS 988 If you need to speak to someone.

Benny 0:22

Well, actually, people ask me what how did you come to do this? This rock stack the socks? What's up with that? So I tell them when I was five, I had a childhood trauma. And for for about a month, I wouldn't. I wouldn't speak I would react to my family. And my family took me to, to the doctors to an even there was an American doctor in Benghazi, they took me to him and to a specialist and said, Well, there's nothing physical around with the kid. But maybe maybe it's psychological. After a month of not speaking. My grandfather and my grandmother took me to the, to the beach. And the afternoon there their signal their chairs. And I'm not talking. I'm just there. They said, play with these rocks. And so I started playing with him and stalking him. And it kept going and going. And my grandma and grandpa. Oh, good, Benny. Good. I will. Isn't that good? Isn't that and I started, came back. I came back talking.

Rex Hohlbein 2:04

I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to you Nomi. Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community. In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners, that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of vulnerability and courage. They share a common hope that by giving all of us a window into their world, they're opening an increased level of awareness, understanding and perhaps most importantly, a connection within our own community. It seems in most families, there is someone living a bit differently from the rest of the family. You could say zigging when others are zagging. Their lifestyle or life choices are engaging and thought provoking in one moment, perplexing, challenging, and even maddening in the next. And while it is not always the case, in general with family, in the more difficult moments, we work to find ways to be inclusive, and supportive. In other words, we try our best to make room for each other uncle Maynard, who marches to a different drummer, getting eye rolls around the Thanksgiving dinner table is accepted rather than pushed away. How far beyond family and close friends does this reservoir of acceptance extend? Do we react similarly, when somebody in our community is marching to a different drummer? Do we make room for them? Do we work to be inclusive and supportive in the way we do for Uncle Maynard? Today I'm talking with my good friend Benny. He has lived homeless in the Fremont neighborhood, artfully stacking stones on the parking strip in the same place for the last 30 plus years. I begin by asking Benny to tell us a little about Libya, where he grew up,

Benny 4:02

you know, Libya, from even the ancient times. I could say was like, not like the United States as far as the mixture of cultures. It was like, stop station for civilizations. So they get get mixed. There is a lot of ethnicities. There is blue eyed Libyans. There's medium dark Libyan, there's black Libyans there's, and we're all speak the same, the same language? Yeah, that's beautiful. And so the Libya was touched by so many civilizations. And that's a beautiful thing about my country that I love. But it also has the misfortune of colonization, like, at some point Libya was colonized by three or four different powers at the same time, France in the south of England and in the West, Italy in the in the East. But that didn't even affect the the people's sense of unity. And then, you know, when in Libya had its independence and 51 until 69, who was a kingdom? So the incidents I was telling you about there was during the kingdom, when I was five years old had a monarch. Yes, we had a monarch, King Idris.

Rex Hohlbein 5:44

The incident Benny referred to was a traumatic and defining moment in his life, he was only five years old, a trauma that would eventually bring him to Seattle. I asked Benny to tell us a bit about that painful day.

Benny 5:58

So we'll documented incident event in Benghazi. In a 1964. Three students were were killed at the school for protesting. And one of them is, is my cousin. But very, very close. A he's, you know, loved young man. And his mom was she's my artist. And she, she wanted to throw herself from the second floor. And, yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 6:38

and How old was he, your cousin,

Benny 6:40

he was 18. The school was called the Benghazi. And then after that, there was the, the martyr martyrs of January that they renamed. So it could be looked up under the martyrs of January. School. So it was for my family. It was trauma for all of the family. And it just just seeing the women and the grand news and everybody just somehow touched me was too much. It touched me wrong. Yeah. And that's what the trauma was for me. The thing is what why I was traumatized and that my my brothers is because, okay, my older brother was in school. My younger brother is a baby. And the news came when that the killing of the students, the ladies, I was with the ladies when they got the news. And you saw all ran out. Barefooted, told the school must have been horrific, and I chased him barefooted. And so that's why and my brothers were not

Unknown Speaker 7:58

affected by it. They didn't experience at the same day. They

Benny 8:01

didn't experience the same way they found out later after, but I saw the horrified ladies around and barefooted and stuff.

Speaker 3 8:09

Yeah, you were part of their their horror in that moment in

Benny 8:14

that moment, because I just happen to be the right age when I'm not in school when I'm not a baby. Like my baby brother. He was with the grandma did not went right over him. Yeah, just tiny baby. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 8:30

Witnessing the distress of his aunt, mother and other family members altered the course of Benny's life. He attributes his personal mental health issues to this one incident, an incident that set into motion, his lifelong relationship with the stones he stacks a journey of Art and Healing. What did your father do for work? He had

Benny 8:53

a grocery shop and and hardware shop in the Old Market. Oh, we used to we all hung out in

Unknown Speaker 9:00

the shops to get to work there and be there.

Benny 9:04

My father was into the Big Island business. He pickled olives and things and so we had I had a big basement full of the barrels. I come from a big family so that my older brothers, the older ones that have each one that have their own room. And then the younger ones to have them in a room. And then all of us the little guys all in a bunk room. So when I was 12 I took all of my I went above the roof of the house almost throwing my my books and my art supplies and everything. I want my own room. Everybody standing there mom is standing there. Like we can't I mean you're not the older guys have their rooms and then the middle ones, too in a room. The little guys, which I was wondering have I got it in your head? I got it in my head. I want my own room on mine. And throwing the stuff. Everybody's like couldn't couldn't say anything. Just wait waiting and dad dad walks in. He sees all the stuff on the ground. And everybody standing against the wall that was going on the gold Corp he's up there. He, he wants his his own room that goes like you want your own room. Okay, come on down. I take care of you. So I come down. I come down. He goes, Okay, here's the deal. You want your own room. So the basement where we're, he has his Brooklyn business now. He was there is the corner of the basement. The corner over there is dark and empty. And so he goes, Okay, your brothers are going to paint it for you. They're going to do partition, and they're going to put a bright light therefore you in your bed and your table and everything.

Unknown Speaker 11:18

Your own room, your own room.

Benny 11:20

I go. Okay, so I spent the rest of the time until I came to America in that in the pickling room. It's smelling the olives. And but it was fun. It was my own room. And my oldest brother Bucha. Elvis Presley on the wall.

Rex Hohlbein 11:45

Now, Amy didn't the other younguns kind of go. Look what Benny just did?

Benny 11:51

No, no, no, they they waited their turns until the older ones moved. Yeah, got married everything. They stopped the letter. They stayed in line. They stayed in line, they moved up the ladder.

Rex Hohlbein 12:03

You're a rule breaker from the beginning. Yes, sir. When Benny was nine years old, another major event took place in Libya.

Benny 12:14

And then Qaddafi came and 69. I was nine years old when Qaddafi came. I stayed in Libya until I was 20. Yeah, till 1980. I finished I finished high school there. Then Then I went to Europe. I did almost a year at the University of Perugia, Italy. I did a year there. who waited on the on the US, visa. There are you in Europe, and then I came here at the age of 21. And

Rex Hohlbein 12:49

why did you want to leave Libya? Were you leaving something or going towards something?

Benny 12:55

No, I was leaving something. I left in 1980. But in 77 and 78. That's when Qaddafi got really brutal and did the public hangings and he actually executed the university students in the streets. hanger, and I couldn't take that anymore. I wasn't in remember in that, what might my old trauma but now I'm older? I couldn't take it. No, I never I never wanted to leave Libya.

Unknown Speaker 13:34

Yeah. But for your mental health, you knew you needed to I had to

Speaker 2 13:39

arriving in Persia, Italy. Benny studied art in history, as well as learning English and Italian. He was preparing for his adult life for the adventure ahead of him. And,

Benny 13:50

and Italy. My my father and my mother came to see me. And they spent two months with me. How was the last time I see them?

Unknown Speaker 14:03

Are they either of them living still? No, they're both

Benny 14:06

past. I had my parents also myself in Italy. Both my parents lived under the Italian colonization. So they spoke Italian fluidly. Because the Italians were there in Libya. Yeah. And Italy when they colonize Libya, they change their names to Oh, all the names became Italian Banco de Roma. This this that everything is Italian. Why

Rex Hohlbein 14:39

America, like you had the whole world to choose from Why did you decide to come to America?

Benny 14:45

You know, I did a lot of reading when I was younger, and I was impressed with America since I was young. I've read a lot of things I've read the American history and stuff like that and So I made an impression on me when I was young. And I didn't want to stay in Italy because it was it was so close to to Libya. And in the in the 80s, Qaddafi did what it was called the physical liquidation of all the Libyans abroad. He actually killed a lot of Libyans in Rome and Germany and England. And so it was, it wasn't safe. Well,

Rex Hohlbein 15:32

the history is full of those people. Yeah. So

Benny 15:35

I came to the states here, while you landed in LaGuardia. Okay. I was so impressed, man. I was looking from the from the plane down. Whoa, this is New York baby this was talking about. And you come from another world?

Speaker 3 15:54

And you're 21 years old? Yes. It's all in front of you. Yep.

Benny 16:00

went to Los Angeles. By then my English was okay.

Rex Hohlbein 16:05

Did you know what you wanted to do? At that point?

Benny 16:08

I didn't, I was just showing up. I didn't have a clue and the world was so my world at least was so kind of confused. Because of the political situation that I was coming out of, and what was going on. You know, you could see the result of today in Libya is not in a good shape. And that's that's the result of all of that stuff that happened back then.

Rex Hohlbein 16:37

Yeah, it's still reverberating through. Yeah.

Benny 16:42

Well, the places split now on itself. And that's because of all the stuff that was happening then, that I was the victim of a sort of, I don't want to say victim because

Rex Hohlbein 16:56

that you are traumatized by it. And

Benny 17:00

it affected you. Yes, BSN house.

Rex Hohlbein 17:03

After a short stay in New York City. Benny moved to Los Angeles, and then six months later to New Orleans,

Benny 17:10

New Orleans. This is the Yeah. In New Orleans, I spent in Orleans from 82 to 8718 88.

Rex Hohlbein 17:27

What did you do in New Orleans.

Benny 17:29

I went to Loyola University. It's a Jesuit Catholic university. I studied philosophy of the of the dark ages of the medieval ages. The day that was my concentration, you know, philosophy you do you take you do all you do the history, you do the ethics you do that, this that, but you concentrate on this one particular one particular area and my area was medieval philosophy. I studied the Christian philosophy and Islamic philosophy and Jewish philosophy. I studied the St. Thomas Aquinas in Spinoza. And the Islamic because the the Middle Ages, that's where the Islamic civilization was.

Unknown Speaker 18:17

Yeah. Wow.

Rex Hohlbein 18:20

That's a lot of a lot of a lot of like, deep thought packed into that head of yours, right? I mean, that's a pretty beautiful time of your life. Yes. While studying at the university, Benny was keeping in mind his lifelong interest in teaching.

Benny 18:36

When I was a boy. And with the family having some kind of vent wedding or this solace or the other. I would actually be in charge of the little guys. I just get him chairs and everything and play school. I'll actually give him assignment.

Unknown Speaker 18:55

Yeah. Headmaster Benny. Exactly. And

Benny 18:58

I keep an eye on them that my job was to keep an eye on them.

Rex Hohlbein 19:03

Yeah, but you were going to make the most of it though. They were they were also going to learn something. Oh, and

Benny 19:06

I I agree them and I reward them and stuff like that. So yes, I I did want it to teach. Benny

Rex Hohlbein 19:16

How are you going to school and paying for, you know, living arrangements and food? How are you? How are you making money during that time? Well, I

Benny 19:26

had student loans, picking up odd jobs. Jobs. I was I was no I was working well, I was going to school. In fact, when the I was at the University when when they had the Republican Convention, I was working at over at Intercontinental Hotel. And, you know, I I met Henry Kissinger personally.

Rex Hohlbein 19:53

How did that happen?

Benny 19:55

I was the captain of the of the room service. And the Republican convention was held there in New Orleans. So the penthouse room up there where I didn't know who's in there but they told me okay, you need to because I was the captain you need to take Brand New TV out of the box take it to the depends house. So I had couple of guys we can get that TV in there. There's couple of guys security standing right there. And so I go in there. I plugged the TV and bullet situated like this is somebody in the shower. I as soon as a bullet and I'm go like this tested. This man comes out in his rope. I look. But

Unknown Speaker 20:51

you recognize them immediately. Yes, it will. We will like this. Yeah, just right up front right

Benny 20:56

there. And me and him in the room and security outside. Mr. Kissinger itself. Sir. One of pleasure meeting you. Near? Where are you from? I gotta come from Libya.

Rex Hohlbein 21:14

What was your impression? I've

Benny 21:15

heard of the man like he's known around the Middle East and our world there. Yeah. So I have known of him, but I was impressed. He's an old politician. You know, when he was nice, but he wasn't his room. I mean, the white drove hotel room, you

Rex Hohlbein 21:38

know, probably one of the very few number of people that have seen Henry Kissinger in his robe. Mmm hmm. I mean, probably

Benny 21:46

real. I swear, man, for real. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 21:51

While at the university, Benny was living with roommates. But after they graduated, and went on to jobs in different cities, Benny stayed in New Orleans for a while. unclear about his next steps.

Benny 22:04

We live in this house, but we all graduated. We all went back home, like Connecticut. This this day. I had nowhere to go. So I stayed a little longer. In New Orleans. Then I go like, everybody's gone. I don't. So I decided to move here to Seattle to see. Yes.

Rex Hohlbein 22:28

Let's see. That's right after the Seattle Sonics won the the NBA championship. Seattle was just becoming known.

Benny 22:36

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Rex Hohlbein 22:39

You take a bus here or No,

Unknown Speaker 22:41

I drove he drove.

Benny 22:43

I drove I had I had a Honda. I drove all the way. With the undergraduate philosophy. You can't really do much. But I, I applied for a master at the U DUB.

Rex Hohlbein 22:57

Did you get into the U DUB for

Benny 22:59

semester? But then the finances weren't feasible. So I dropped I dropped.

Rex Hohlbein 23:10

Around that time, Benny met a woman and fell into a romantic relationship. And while I don't know much about her, I do know Benny was very much in love. They started a landscaping business doing ornamental rockery. hardscaping for clients around Seattle, a business they had together for about eight years, when suddenly the relationship ended. And with that, the business as well. This was a devastating time for Benny, he was heartbroken. And it was the beginning of a spiral downwards.

Benny 23:42

We got in a little trouble a lot of drinking a lot of you know, and then I went I went to rehab for four months for alcohol. Yeah. And, and that for for a while I was I was sober. But then I went back to it. And then I went just straight to the rocks. Because that's the only thing that can would keep keep me keep my sanity. And

Rex Hohlbein 24:14

why weren't you able to just keep doing landscape? Why? Why did you decide to? We just emotionally emotionally

Benny 24:21

just drained I just couldn't do it. Yeah. So I moved to Fremont and went to my childhood love which is stacking the rocks.

Rex Hohlbein 24:36

Life was falling apart for Benny. He began living out of his Westfalia van. He was homeless for the first time in his life.

Benny 24:43

I went to showers at at the at the Church of the urban restaurant. And I had I had the van that I slipped in and parked right by the church was the failure I was beat up but but I had a right. Squeezed right next to the church and the church will be nice to me. I didn't have to let you move with let me be there and as a sliding doors like a little house. Yeah. So I stayed there rest where I stay right by the steps,

Speaker 2 25:20

Benny met an older woman, an architect by the name of Anne, who lived in the Fremont neighborhood, they would become great friends often and let Benny spend the night on her couch. On one of those occasions, on his way to the corner grocery store, Benny found something important.

Benny 25:38

I go like, Well, I'm gonna go to the little Bodega store. So I went there to get a few things. And I just looked across the street and, and I just went and sat there by the bodega store. There were milk crates. I took one and I went across the street. I sat down oh, just looking at the road and looking around me and and then on the side there, they will just just feel rocks, just strolling around, you know, homeless rocks. And so I know, I grabbed them penny. I grabbed him and I played with them right next to me in the crate. By the by the evening, I went up all the streets to find more homeless rocks with my milk crate. And then few people brought me some few rocks, you know. And then, like two weeks into this, I had like about 10 to 15 Small stacks. One day a lady comes an old lady. She's on a cane. She started going all around the rocks. I said my name is Benny and I made these trucks she goes it's like having your own little parking. I got like Yeah. And so a month into into doing this. I have a cute humiliated a whole bunch of rocks. And I wanted to go to to Hawaii. Stack rocks there for a couple of weeks. So I couldn't leave the rocks there. I just been there for two months. I wasn't yet familiar with the with the neighbors and everything. I can just leave rocks here. There was there was a house that all the grass front yards the grass is grown. It has no fence or anything no money maintaining has an offense. And so I had this crazy idea. Hand trucked all of my rocks. And I built a wall because I've done that for other people's houses. Yeah. For your work for my work. Yeah. All of the rocks went in there and looked really nice. Looks like

Rex Hohlbein 28:15

and you didn't ask anybody though. I

Unknown Speaker 28:17

didn't ask you just did it.

Benny 28:19

I just did it. I went to Hawaii for a month. Then you just left. Left. I came back brought my hand truck. As soon as I bought two rocks on the on the hunter. ditch these couple from the window door Hey. And they come out. They go like hey, when we got to knock on the door, Miss garrison. They knock on the door this old lady come out. They go like Mrs. Garrison. Do this. The guy who told you he was putting rocks. Now he's taking now

Speaker 4 29:00

he's taking she goes she said what's your name? I said Benny, who's all Brittany? I thought the city made them. I go like No ma'am. I bought them but if you want me to leave him or leave him, she goes no, no, no. Vinnie. You

Benny 29:18

take these rocks. And also you take the ones in the backyard. Because the day they turn down the they're going to make it a condo. I don't want the rocks to go into the to the fill or to the dam. So take these rocks and take and she had a plenty of rocks, beautiful rocks in the back. So I told the neighbors are well

Rex Hohlbein 29:46

it's like your rocks doubled. Yeah, they double put him here. They had babies. He came back and

Benny 29:51

I swear man I spent two days. Yeah, hauling rocks back to the Yeah, and then I started making the big stuff

Rex Hohlbein 30:01

and talk about maybe when the neighbor started first noticing you there, right? Like, like, I mean, this was something different. I'm sure they were like wondering what's this man? Did what were those first relationships like the

Benny 30:19

stranger had a did an article about the it was called hanging in the balance. And they had they interviewed some people, some people goes like, Oh, this is great. This is unique. This is this and others did like go like, I don't know what he what he's doing here. It's, it's the end. So when somebody said, Oh, he's Charmin savage.

Rex Hohlbein 30:47

I want a charming savage.

Benny 30:51

In the article.

Unknown Speaker 30:54

I swear, man, I go, what?

Rex Hohlbein 30:58

How did you feel?

Benny 30:59

I just went

Rex Hohlbein 31:02

whatever. Yeah, but there were I do know, there were some people not happy with you there. No. Yeah. Why do you think that? Why do you think that is? Like, what? Can you explain that? Or is that just if you're going to have 100 people 25 are going to be unhappy?

Benny 31:18

You know, that, that period of time, there were a lot of homeless people and free minds, you know, and hanging out on their own 36. You know, a lot of Yeah, and we hang out together. I hang out with these guys. And, and then I went and did my rock. So they might have gotten the ideas that you know, just your trust. Yeah. Yeah, homelessness was not looked upon kindly. Those days, I think

Speaker 2 31:51

are these days or these days? So you you went to this place? Almost just by chance for no real reason. And you started to make your you're stacking your rocks? Was it a? Was it a mental health thing for your emotional thing? Like, like, why were you there? We are healing what?

Benny 32:10

Yes.

Rex Hohlbein 32:12

Yes. Can you talk about that?

Benny 32:13

I was well, I told you, I just got out of a relationship that I really wanted it to. To continue. And I was really hurt by it and, and brought childhood memories of being hurt and everything. And I didn't want to go any further.

Speaker 2 32:32

Yeah. And were you still sleeping at Ann's place? Yes. So you are getting up in the morning and saying, CNN, I'm going, I'm going to the office, right? And you would show up down?

Benny 32:44

That's exactly what I called it. The office. Some people couldn't understand. Like, somebody shows up on the sidewalk on the street and start stacking rocks.

Rex Hohlbein 32:58

Yeah, I want to share a story between you and me. And I want to get your reaction. And you know, I love you. Like, like, I think you're you embody for me, like what I think we as humans should be doing like living in a humanity. Very rich human way. Right. And I see that in your art and how you react to people. But there was once when I came to you on my bike with a coat and to give you and you were on this on the parking strip, and you were yelling across the street at folks. And you were pretty upset. I don't know what happened or I don't know if if you were having a very emotional moment. But when you saw me, you you kind of yelled out at me like what are you doing sneaking up on me? And then we had a little moment where you were pretty angry with me and? and such? Was that a mental health moment? Or was that maybe drugs? Or was it just emotional?

Benny 33:59

motional?

Unknown Speaker 33:59

Do you remember that moment?

Benny 34:01

Yes.

Rex Hohlbein 34:02

What was what was your what's your side of their memory?

Speaker 2 34:05

And let me let me also I want to say something else to Benny. By the time that had happened, I already actually like, not fall in love with you but loved you like really like really? Like I just I'd never met anybody like you. And so when I got down to the end of the block, and

Rex Hohlbein 34:23

my heart was pounding because you were pretty upset at me. Like my number one feeling was to just feel bad for you. Like it wasn't like I was mad. It was more than I could see that you were having a really hard time. And to be fair to our friendship. It was the only moment in our friendship ever. Right? Like there was like a little bit of like, whoa, what's going on here? Yeah,

Benny 34:45

it was was a bad time for me. You know, I've went through some some bad times. I'm glad I had the rocks next to me because that helped quite a bit. But, you know, I, I did have emotional times because of either past traumas or, or just triggering. Yeah, this probably was triggered by something or another, it's happened number of times.

Rex Hohlbein 35:20

First I want to say thank you for letting me ask that question. And, and for answering it. And I also want to say that, like you lived your life out in public. Everybody has hard times, and they get to go behind doors, and have their hard times. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that's really difficult for people that live homeless is that they, everything is out there, right, like, like everything,

Benny 35:46

exactly.

Rex Hohlbein 35:49

I have thought often of this moment with Benny, a scene that included him taking a miss swing at me, and then chasing me 25 feet or so kicking at my bike and yelling, if I had not first gotten to know Benny, to know how beautiful he is to see him honestly, as family, my view of this interaction would have been completely different. I would have liked most people I think, have been angry and jumped on the phone to call the police. Rather, I was overcome by worry for him, like we all would for a brother. The more we know each other, the more we understand each other. And in the understanding, we find ways to make room for each other.

Benny 36:32

I made a visit to the to the Grand Canyon. And that's when I was at, at the University. I went on a sabbatical to meet with the Native Americans. I did the talk and circle the sweatshop. So the third night, they administer a little bit of peyote. For me, they knew how to and there is the fire and all these medicine men and women are sitting when the when the peyote took effect. I just lift them off sittin and went over there. And there were all kinds of rocks all over scattered. I go I start stacking them up. And when I finished nobody said anything. Everybody was just watching. When I when when I finished. I come and I as I sit down and one of the one of the medicine men and and they said you're the stone that sir.

Rex Hohlbein 37:49

So it was given to you the name?

Unknown Speaker 37:52

Oh, wow. That's a Native American. Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 37:55

And did you know at that moment, that would be your your name? I mean, were you going to

Benny 38:01

get became it? That's it? Yeah.

Rex Hohlbein 38:03

How did you come to be so good at it? Did you?

Speaker 2 38:07

Did you think that you have a is it a was it a natural talent? Or was it a because I'm gonna say or was it just practice because I still when I see you balance, what looks like an impossible stone sitting on a point on the top of one of your sculptures.

Rex Hohlbein 38:24

I think isn't like magic, or I mean seriously, it's really quite extraordinary.

Benny 38:30

They you know, I've been asked that questions. How do you how do you do this? And really, it's when I hold the rock, I'm inside of it. I I know how I need to be moved. This is very common. It's like just like that, you know where that point when I hold it. I know how I need to be moved. Yeah, like you have

Rex Hohlbein 38:55

to be balanced. Exactly. And so it exactly you find you find like a human would standing on one foot would know how to balance Exactly. Ben he continued to spend nights on Anne's couch, but also outside with his rock sculptures. His claim space was in front of the professional engravers building on 36th in Fremont. He would build and rebuild his rock sculptures there.

Benny 39:20

Some some days I call and I tell her I'm not coming home tonight. I would spend the night there. Yeah, I spent a lot of nights there.

Unknown Speaker 39:33

Just laying on the ground. Well,

Benny 39:36

no, I either slipped behind the fence or or I had like a couple of couple of chairs want to sit on and when to put my feet on and just a blanket.

Rex Hohlbein 39:51

And why were you choosing to do that when you had because

Benny 39:55

I was so close to the rocks and I I had I was making spectacular pieces, and I did not want them to. Only later on the years where I, I got known and I wasn't as much worried about the rocks. You

Rex Hohlbein 40:13

were in the flow you in the rocks. You were making it happen. Yep. And you didn't want to leave them note. The professional engravers building is actually a hidden professional recording studio called studio litho. Many famous musical groups such as Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Dave Matthews Band recorded their iconic albums there, I had a chance to sit down with Edie Brooks from resonant mastering who had been the manager of studio litho. During the same time period, Benny was out front creating his sculptures. My

Ed Brooks 40:49

name is Ed Brooks, and I'm an audio engineer that's lived in Seattle, all of his life. For a 25 year stretch, I was the manager of a studio in Fremont called studio litho.

Rex Hohlbein 41:04

Through the years, Ed witnessed a great amount of change. And the Fremont neighborhood, Fremont

Ed Brooks 41:09

23 years ago looked a lot different than it does now. And they were big, empty lots with people living in buses. And it was, I guess, kind of an economically down area. And so our studio was built in an old brick building that had been like a screen printing shop, and he was relatively inexpensive. Real Estate. And so So at the same time, we once the studio was going, we kind of were running into a problem because we had a recessed door, and people would sleep in at night. And it was like, we didn't know what to do. We were, you know, a bunch of young music engineers who just wanted to make music and, and deal with and not deal with everything else that's going on in the world. Yeah. So I don't know, I got to the studio one day and person who was working there, said to me, Hey, have you seen the rock dude? I'm like, what? Because yeah, go check this out. And out in front of the studio, there were these stacked rock sculptures. And I was like, Whoa, I've never seen anything like that. And I don't think Benny was there at that time. And I think it might have been a couple days later, I would actually finally meet him. And I was just in awe of the rocks. And at that point, I'm like, Oh, wow, this is great. We have this kind of eclectic street artist hanging out in front of our place. Stacking rocks, this is this is good. You know, the aesthetic, just what it meant. Yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 43:01

the vibe was right. Yeah,

Ed Brooks 43:02

it just felt really good. So much so that I remember I was like, we were gonna go to lunch. And I'm like, Hey, Benny, want a sandwich. And, you know, bought him a sandwich, like he was part of the crew pretty quickly realized Benny was homeless. And he had claimed the space. I hate to say it like this, he was cleaner. He was an artist. It just seemed like, Oh, this is this is a good solution to our problem. It's like, Oh, if Benny's out here, this is great. Meaning

Rex Hohlbein 43:36

he's gonna keep other people away that maybe were more troublesome or less clean, or any of the above? Yep.

Ed Brooks 43:43

I mean, I think that we all realized it, that he had established himself there. And that it was a better situation than it had been. Previous to Benny showing up,

Rex Hohlbein 43:54

give me an example of what was going on, prior to Benny showing up.

Ed Brooks 43:59

Now, other than It just smelled like people were peeing on the door. And, you know, a band would be showing up and we go to open the front door and have to shove on it and there would be somebody against it. It was

Rex Hohlbein 44:11

just, it was always just something. Yeah. And it was,

Ed Brooks 44:14

you know, it was intimidating. Because he didn't know, didn't know. And also, at this point, I was just trying to run a business. And this was just an annoyance for my business.

Rex Hohlbein 44:29

In the beginning, Benny was a welcomed presence, but over time, issues began to appear. The thing

Ed Brooks 44:36

that I didn't know learn from Benny is that people liked to collect possessions. And he liked to collect rocks. That was the first thing so suddenly, there was a lot of rocks in front of our place. stuff started showing up, chairs, furniture, and it started spilling over The fence and it's started to grow. You know, he's concocted a bed out of chairs and some sort of maybe like adorbs bridging chairs and he's built a tent over himself. And it's the winter. It's just fucking cold.

Rex Hohlbein 45:17

So it was little tiny, little, tiny

Ed Brooks 45:21

bits. Yeah. You know, once he started sleeping out there, then I then I was kind of really faced in a problem because like, Okay, this, this really isn't. You're right. I'm the business manager. This isn't, this really isn't okay.

Rex Hohlbein 45:40

For years, Edie found himself feeling conflicted. On one hand, he appreciated Vandy and was trying to make some room for him to allow him to express himself and also find some shelter. On the other hand, Ed had a business to run.

Ed Brooks 45:55

Yeah, this is kind of where he like you, you know, my heart's breaking. And I'm totally conflicted. I don't know what to do about it. I mean, I'm just going this is bad for the business, like, the place is kind of getting trashed. Everybody involved with the studio is going through the same thing I am, there's points where it's like, it's hard on us that Benny's there. We also totally care about him. And then it started to get harder. Late at night, he started to make a lot of noise. And he would be making a lot of noise out front and so much so that sometimes, people who were working there would actually have to tell him to quiet down because it could hear him in the recording in the recording. Because he was so he was so loud. Now, at some point during all of this, you know, I had told him, you know, you can't do this where we have a business and you know, sometimes people are scared to you if they're coming out of the studio. And you know, I can't have you out here and it was just like a horrible hard conversation. You

Rex Hohlbein 47:10

had this initial kind of getting to know Benny and it was if for lack of a better word, it was a little bit of a honeymoon. Yeah. Basically, in really impressed and taken with him and his artwork. And, and, and it felt like a good thing for kind of occupying that space. Yeah. But then over time, it it probably began to morph. Yeah. And it became more stressful. Yeah. Did that show up also in your guys's relationship? Was it tougher to be? Hey, Benny, good morning. Oh, it

Ed Brooks 47:45

was totally. I mean, it got to the point where I was always the I was the I was kind of the bad guy. Like I was the person who was like, Benny, you can't be out here Benny. Can't do this. Many of my clients are complaining. And it got to the point where he knew my car. And if he saw me drive by on 36 to loop into the studio, by the time I could actually get out front, he'd be gone. So it was stressful for both of us. Right? I was, I was in a role that I didn't want to be in and he was in No, I don't want to have him. Tell me. I can't sit here right now. So I'm just going to move on. And if I'm there. Am I going to go check every 20 minutes to see if Benny's come back? It's like, No, I couldn't manage it all the time.

Rex Hohlbein 48:35

Yeah. You had this this very up close relationship with Him in the sense that he was out front of your business. Yeah. How was his? Or what was your awareness of his relationship to community?

Ed Brooks 48:50

I think he scared people. And I mean, and that was the primary feedback that I got. But then I also knew people who liked him, people would stop and talk to him. You know, he was he was a giant personality on that little spot, and he kind of weren't going to walk by him without being engaged. I mean, I feel like there were times where he was kind of the heart. He was the interest the soul. He was it was so unique. And it's wild, because now you're just flashing on another memory where there was definitely some blowback from the Chamber of Commerce in in Fremont, where they were starting to get mad at us for letting Benny be there like it was that cross from when Benny was like this celebrity street artist to He's scaring tourists in in the period of time when he was celebrity street artist and he was, what's the word I want to eat? I want to just say he was the mayor. Are Fremont Yeah, he was the

Rex Hohlbein 50:02

I've said it before that, you know, we all know that Fremont is the center of the universe. And Benny is the center of Fremont. Yeah, he's the center center of the universe. Yeah. Reflecting on his relationship with Benny, I asked him for his big picture takeaway.

Ed Brooks 50:17

You know, all humans contribute to the community. Myself, I'm obviously partial to art. This is just my interests. And so I totally am attracted to that. That's probably what, you know, obviously got me to connect with Benny. I mean, I would say, he was a friend. He was, you know, a person I cared about. And he was person I was who I knew was suffering. And, and I know that you know, this, and you kind of learn it. And it's like, there's really nothing you can do to fix that.

Rex Hohlbein 50:55

Yeah, that's been his journey. Yep. I think what you shared Ed is beautiful, actually. And I think it's honest. I mean, I think Benny provided a complication, and also an enrichment to

Ed Brooks 51:07

Yeah. Oh, man. Huge. And I learned a lot. I think so. Kind of almost a tie it all back. I'd been, you know, 2015 20 years. With Benny. Yeah. So I've been trying to figure it all out on my own. And it's like, there was kind of no help. There was, you know, there was like, the hard line corporate and city wide, like, move them along. Don't let them stay. There was never any like, I never could find any help. There

Rex Hohlbein 51:42

is help out there. But you know, it's so complicated, you know, and then you throw in, you throw in so many factors like mental health. Well, here's the best way to say it. The old yelled out the car window, get a job. Right? It's, it's, it's completely naive. And off the mark. It's not even worth responding to, because it just shows the complete lack of understanding of how complicated the issue is.

Ed Brooks 52:10

Yeah. I just, I know how hard people who don't have housing have to work every day to just live. It's a full time or it's hard.

Rex Hohlbein 52:24

Benny spent almost three decades in the Fremont neighborhood in front of the recording studio stacking rocks. He met many people along the way and develop deep connections in the neighborhood. As Ed illustrated, it was a complicated balance within the community. I asked Benny to recollect some of his experiences with folks he had encountered along the way.

Benny 52:46

One time, years ago. I was doing a stack of rocks. That wasn't happening. There is this lady comes by me. And I'm stacking rock, but I for some reason wouldn't wasn't sitting there. And I tell the lady Oh, please look just just helped me with with this. Just watch me. I'm gonna put this she goes. I'm on hurry. I gotta go. I gotta go. Please, please just let me do it, please. It's very important. If you so I go like this. And for some reason, unlike me. It was taking me a long time you were struggling with it. Struggling with Coulda, Woulda, and she as you go along, please, please. No, no, no, please. Then I bought it. I'm gonna call. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for helping me. She leaves. She comes back, like, several months later, with two bags full of groceries and things. A little money at work. He was here. Thank you so much. I work for what? She goes. You remember me? I work? Yeah. Her name is Holly. She, she goes. When I was coming by here. I was going to the Aurora Bridge to jump. And after you kept me there for this long. I just took the bus and then went to the U DUB hospital to the psychiatric unit. And she said and that's where I would that's that's where I met my husband. He's a doctor there. And, and you know, I said Oh, great. And she hugged me and she was six months later. She showed up again. No, but more than that. The doctor husband was with her. She goes that Binney and he's like thank you and and all of that and they had a tiny It may be brand new. She said we have we have a baby.

Rex Hohlbein 55:05

Wow. Wow. It's the beauty of reaching out to each other. Right and, and that also says a lot many about what you meant to the community sitting there for so long and working and interfacing with folks gone by. That's, that's amazing. And

Benny 55:23

I still remember those, those rocks. I kept them for a long time. I've seen a lot of kids grow up here. There was a kid, his name is Ryan Bartlett. And his, his mom and dad will go into divorce. And he was six years old. And they pass by me, I'm sitting there with the rocks. They want to go to the coffee shop and do some talking. So they leave him there with me and the rocks.

Rex Hohlbein 55:57

And women. Had you met them before? Yeah. Okay. So you knew them?

Benny 56:01

I knew them by passing by, you know, and then they started getting comfortable. Yeah. So

Rex Hohlbein 56:08

they trusted you. Yeah.

Benny 56:10

So they leave Ryan there. And then I start seeing them like, not as as often because they divorced. And so this kid 1617 years old, come down. It's right. I'm still sitting in the same place. He goes, there is national competition. And I want to get get into it. And the competition is high school graduates to do a seven minute film. I want to get to I said, Are you sure? Right. I mean, I'm controversial, you know, and it may hinder your chances. He said, Nope, I want to do a film about you. I go like, okay, so, and he's key comes down there. He's bringing me a little lunch. I must have given him 70 6070 hours. So we did the canal thing. We did talking by the rocks. So he gets it done. He comes to me, he said 739 entries throughout the nation, all the states. And the the first prize is scholarship, full scholarship for film school. And then he comes back. Three weeks later he goes, they accepted 36 of the 700. And I'm one of them. He comes back three weeks later, and I'm sitting by the rocks till late in the in the evening. Their car parked right front of the rocks. He comes out jumping on me and hugging me who's Benny? August number one. He went to Los Angeles. He went to Los Angeles for scholarship. And that's beautiful and finished school there and leaves the field filmmaker in New York.

Rex Hohlbein 58:22

That's amazing. And how often do you guys talk? How much do you stay in touch? I mean, he's busy, I'm sure and every

Benny 58:29

like. Couple of months? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the kid just loves me the kid. Yeah, he's not a kid anymore. But yeah,

Rex Hohlbein 58:38

that's really beautiful ads, his can't even believe it. Not all of Benny's interactions were that fortunate over the years both good and bad. came his way. It

Benny 58:50

was it was about 12 o'clock at night. And I was sitting on my chair and they

Speaker 3 59:00

came right at me and sprayed me with like a lot of like pepper spray lots of it like maize or something

Benny 59:10

wasn't like no was like

Rex Hohlbein 59:14

and then lots of it and and they didn't there wasn't anything before that they just came right up to date came right that's

Benny 59:19

the first thing that happened. They didn't say hi or you you snuck up on me and went like this. And then they they pull me off my chair. They try to reach to the to my pocket and I was yelling and hollering and ask them for help and stuff. And one of them was trying to get my my wallet and I wasn't gonna let them I had like 120 bucks and there wasn't going to lose it. So they're starting to hit me in the ribs with their boots is kicking, kicking me left and right by my holiday, somebody heard from cross the street and they came runner and Yellin. These guys took a few more hits and run. And when rare right around the canal call the police and everything

Rex Hohlbein 1:00:16

scary. Well, just young, young kids.

Benny 1:00:22

I was I was out on that for like couple of

Unknown Speaker 1:00:26

months. And you go to the hospital? Oh, yes, they

Benny 1:00:28

took me to the hospital and I had seven ribs broken. Both sides.

Rex Hohlbein 1:00:38

Do you think it was hatred to homeless? Do you think it was just an opportunity to steal,

Benny 1:00:45

I think it was both.

Rex Hohlbein 1:00:49

Fremont is known in Seattle as the center of the universe. And the case could easily be made, that Benny stone sculptures are the center of Fremont. I asked Benny, what it has meant to him to have openly engaged with the community for so many years in the same place. Rain or shine for better or worse, stacking his stones, you

Benny 1:01:09

know, I enjoy watching people and interacting with them and, and reflecting on myself in public and but yeah, it's been a fun journey. You know? I'm, I'm not regretting anything. Yes, because I could have been somewhere else. I could have been somewhere else. Considering my considering my traumas, and my emotional and all of that. I

Rex Hohlbein 1:01:51

was good for you.

Benny 1:01:52

It was good for me. Yes. You know, this community saved my life. Really. I'm 63 now. It taught me a lot about the community and people and helping one another and all this stuff. I I love this community. I love every moment of it. And it has been, it has enriched my my soul for real I know I'm not wasn't doing great things or anything like that other than my art is being there. But I this sense of community has enriched my my soul. Without this community, I could have been much worse, I think. I really think so. I'm thankful. I'm quite thankful. And I have great memories with the people here and then I love this community.

Rex Hohlbein 1:03:06

What holds us together in community depends so often on how close we are willing to come to each other, and how long we are willing to stay there. In those moments of meeting someone living differently or holding different views. We find both the messiness and beauty of relationships. We learn to make space for others. We feel life's vibrancy, and in turn grow our own family.

Benny 1:03:31

There wasn't in the distance between our eyes, but the rain. It was an awful dream. I told her I had Oh, it leaves me with such pain and my dream. They will spirits aimed at my heart and hang and stand dancing over the plane in the rain. Oh, I told her it was an awful dream. It was so real. It was insane. She looked at me with her eyes full of rain. Huh? She sighed. She sighed again. And she said the new dream. Do you recognize the faces behind the spears? In your dream? Did you hit Colin screaming or horses or an airway? And your dream was it? Was it on the river? Was it in the valley? Was it on the hill? And I remember I remember I told her my dream. I was riding a wild horse crossing the region ocean searching for top of the hill. And then the green distance appealed. And I told her I felt the ground pulling me toward the way you do. And when I touch base and I crashed, the stones flew and I split into and I found myself in the valley they call Fremont veal oh I told her was so real

Rex Hohlbein 1:04:53

Benny's dear friend and passed away last year. He continues to live in her apartment on her couch. About A year ago, Benny was diagnosed with lung cancer. with chemotherapy. His cancer went into remission. But in March 2023 The Doctors determined the cancer had come back then he has been given about six months to live

Speaker 2 1:05:15

with rent and medical bills, he is in desperate need of financial support. If you are moved by Benny's life story, please consider donating to the Venmo account at Benny the rock man. All funds will go to Benny

Rex Hohlbein 1:05:32

you know me know is produced, written and edited by Tomasz Biernacki and me Rex Holbein. We would like to give a heartfelt thanks to Benny and Ed Brooks for taking the time to speak with us. You know me now has a Facebook and Instagram page where you can join in on the conversation. We also have a website at WWW dot eunomia now.com where you can see photos of Benny the stone dancer and his artwork, as well as stories of other folks we feel you should get to know. Thanks as always for listening