Casey: [00:00:00] Let's humanize the woman on the other side of the dollar, you know, let's humanize the lost little boy that has been trapped in this cycle of being abused and now abusing others. Let's find that identity. Let's see people as they were created to be and not what the world Has placed on the villain

Rex: that we've made them.

Casey: Right. Exactly.

Rex: I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to you know me now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community as well as the individuals and organizations that are in service to those in need. In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks [00:01:00] who share here do so with a great deal of courage and vulnerability.

Rex: They share a common hope that by giving all of us this window into their world, they're opening an increased level of awareness, understanding, and perhaps most importantly, a connection within our own community. A while back, we interviewed Casey for a three part series titled The Skipping Rock. It was one of our most popular stories shared.

Rex: If you missed it, we highly recommend that you take the time to listen to Casey's story. I believe it will shift your understanding and feelings about the sex industry. Casey was kind enough to come back into the studio for this fourth episode to have a follow up conversation. In part, to answer some of the questions submitted to us from our listeners, as well as share her own feelings about having told her story.

Rex: So, wow, three [00:02:00] episodes. Yeah. People were so moved by your sharing. And it's not just, um, your ability to share, but you're very articulate. Like, I mean, you really are able to kind of like, get to it. And, um, Thank you. Yeah, I thought you did such a great job.

Casey: Thank you.

Rex: So, in listening to the three episodes, how was that for you?

Casey: So, listening to it was good. Parts of it was really hard. After each episode, sometimes I'd need to take a break, like midway through the episode, and like call someone. Um, but then after the episodes, you know, I'd just take a slow day. It really helped kind of process and piece some things together as well.

Casey: You know, it's always, healing is, uh, it's, it's ongoing. And so every time these things come out and I'm able to gain more perspective, I'm able to place more pieces together and heal that much more.

Rex: [00:03:00] Well, that makes me really happy. I know Tomas as well, that this can be part of your healing journey.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: So, and I know you opened up a lot of people's hearts too with the way you shared. So I think it's, it's going both ways. Um, When you listen to it, are there things that you wish you had shared or not have shared? Are there, do you have a Did it open up anything in that regard for you?

Casey: I don't think that there's anything that I wish I had not shared.

Casey: I know that it took a long time for me to share the podcast episodes publicly to the people that I know. And once I did share it publicly, knowing that it was all on the table, it removed a lot of the shame and some of those strongholds that kind of held me back. There is so much more to share that was not in the episodes.

Casey: That

Rex: You mean we could have had like two or three more episodes? Absolutely.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: I'm, uh, I'm really glad that it was a positive, beautiful thing for you. [00:04:00] I'd like to start this conversation, kind of, and again, the reason we're doing this is kind of just take it in and, and see, you know, how was it for you and answer any questions that might be out there in the public and, and give us an opportunity to kind of give, you know, a few more questions to you.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: I'd like to start with a little bit about your non profit. I wanna, I wanna just begin kind of in the present and then we'll later go back with some questions. But can you tell us about your non profit and what you're excited about and what you're doing these days?

Casey: Yeah, awesome. I love, um, talking about this.

Casey: Good. It's a good

Rex: place to start. It

Casey: is. Um, way to get me to really open up. Um, yeah, so the non profit that I run is Light of Love. We're Seattle based, um, but we spread nationwide. We are dedicated to serving individuals in the commercial sex industry, and so that includes many different facets of the commercial sex industry, including porn.

Casey: Strip [00:05:00] clubs and working in prostitution on Aurora. And so, those are the places that we do outreach on Aurora. We do local Seattle area strip clubs, and then we go to a national porn convention. And it's really about building relationship with individuals. Letting them know that they're loved and they're valued and they're important.

Casey: Um, it's not transactional. We're not there with an agenda or an expectation

Rex: to change them,

Casey: right? We're not there to change anyone. That's not our job. Our job is just there to. Love and care for and support the individual.

Rex: That's beautiful. First, I just want to say,

Casey: thanks. So, um, as a, as a faith based nonprofit, we recognize that the church hasn't always done the best job of representing, uh, God's love for people in this circumstance.

Casey: And so we want to go and kind of. Change that narrative that, that people may have and let people know how much we love them [00:06:00] and God loves them.

Rex: How do you, uh, how do you get supported financially?

Casey: We are 100 percent donations.

Rex: So, anybody listening to this and moved by your story, um, could, could contact you through the website?

Casey: Through the website, through email, we are also on social media.

Rex: Can you give all that to us now?

Casey: Right now? So

Rex: So your email address is My email address Or the one that you want people to contact you with.

Casey: Yeah, it's Casey, C A S E Y, at lightofloveseattle. org. And,

Rex: and the, um, you have a, you said Facebook as well.

Rex: Uh,

Casey: we're on Instagram at Light of Love Seattle, and we are on Facebook. I don't know it off the top of my head. Okay. Our website is www.lightofloveseattle.org.

Rex: Okay. And then what about volunteers? Is it, is the work that you do, is it, is it suited for volunteers?

Casey: Yeah, we do have space for volunteers in a lot of different capacity.

Casey: So, like, behind the scenes [00:07:00] things, and then we also have front line opportunities for volunteers.

Rex: Yeah, great. What does this mean to you, to be able to do this work?

Casey: Oh, it's so powerful. It, it means a lot that I can put my story into action. Uh, that I can meet these ladies where they're at, and they will, Automatically trust me.

Casey: There's trust there because I've been there. I speak the language. I know the culture. I know that lifestyle and that world. So I can really step in with them and walk alongside them. And that gives them hope.

Rex: It makes me want to think about like how that would have been for you. When you were going through that same phase, like if you had met someone like yourself, like, you know, on the street corner on Aurora, you know, I wonder what that I wonder what that Casey of that time, how she would have interacted with the Casey of now.

Casey: Yeah, it would have been powerful. I think the one thing is that we recognize that people are going to be a little hesitant at [00:08:00] first and maybe a little resistant. And as we. Represent the loving God. That is not hateful or condemning or shaming or judging. We, we come and we just continue to show up with consistency, with love, with that same like, Hey, we're here and we're just going to keep showing up and being there for you.

Rex: You know, as I hear you talk, it's, it's so similar to the very same philosophies that we have put into play with facing homelessness and how you approach people that are on the street homeless. Right? And then, you know, I think about how appropriate that is for us to interact with all of us. Right? Like, if we just put those principles into play in community, what a difference, um, it would be for all of us.

Casey: Right.

Rex: So, I have this, um, I have this, uh, belief, and I'm curious to know if you feel the same way, and that is that in every moment, every one of us is doing the [00:09:00] best we can. And we're making decisions based on the options available to us. And some of us who are privileged have infinite number of options available.

Rex: And others that are struggling, maybe they have one or potentially even just two, uh, options available. And so their choices may not look to be as smart or as thoughtful. Because what the rest of the world doesn't see is that they're only choosing from one or two. Does that philosophy hold true for your experience?

Casey: Um, yeah, that resonates with me. Um, I think, you know, a lot of in my podcast I talk about, um, about choice, right? And the resources that are available to us. And I always say no one just wakes up in the morning and is like, oh, today I'm going to be A prostitute, right? Like, that's not, we're not in kindergarten saying, on career day saying, I want to grow up and be a pimp to, you know, it's, it's doing what we look around us and see, [00:10:00] okay, this is the best way to get forward, to survive, to make something of myself, to be, to achieve, and we are influenced not only by.

Casey: Our surroundings, but our upbringing, and the media, and situations and things that have happened in our life. And so, we're taking all of those things, combining them, and saying, Okay, with all of these things, what is the best way forward? So, yes.

Rex: Yeah, so no one wakes up in the morning. As you were saying, and says also, you know, Oh, today I think I'm going to make all the wrong choices, right?

Rex: I'm going to choose the ones that make me suffer the most,

Casey: right?

Rex: Like nobody does that. And I think if we get to that place, I think we can maybe judge less, right? Knowing, because I think a lot of times people get blamed for not trying or being lazy or just making poor choices. But I, I don't know that that's any of that's involved in the process, right?

Rex: We're all trying. [00:11:00]

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: In, in the podcast, um, the skipping rock, you talk about, um, this process that you went through of being smoothed down and being, you know, not intentionally, but, but cumulatively groomed for the sex industry.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: Right. And can you talk a little bit more about that and also about the importance, you know, the other childhood experience, which is one.

Rex: It's filled with love and guidance and support and maybe just a little bit about the contrast of, of those two experiences and how important that, that is for, you know, a child growing up.

Casey: Yeah, I mean, one of the things is I grew up in a single parent household. My dad wasn't around and I think that that contributes a lot because as children we, we, Desire, the love and kind of the role that, that, uh, both parents play in our life.

Casey: So I think that that contributed to [00:12:00] it, the lack of kind of that security and healthy male role model. Protection, all those things that a father plays, so lacking that, not to mention, you know, growing up, my mom had her own addictions and things that she, mental health that she was struggling with, uh, that It led into my life, and she was not able to be the healthy mother role, that a child also needs that nurturing, loving, attentive, it was more of me taking care of her.

Casey: And then

Rex: Which means, you're not getting to be a child. I wasn't getting to be a child. You're having to be the adult.

Casey: I was, yes, I was absolutely, um, I needed to grow up really quick because I was taking care of my mom. And I don't know if this made the cut in the, in the podcast, but you know, I remember at just a young age of like six or seven [00:13:00] years old, needing to call the police to come resuscitate my mom because she had committed.

Casey: So like she was. trying to kill herself. Yeah. And so, you know, having my childhood kind of like really taken and then a lot of unsafe things happening in the home. I didn't feel safe that what felt safe to me was on the streets.

Rex: And that's crazy, right? Right. If the streets are safer than

Casey: your home, right?

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: So, really, I think what you're saying is that that leads to trauma.

Casey: It leads to trauma. Um, you know, another thing is that poverty plays a role in this process, right, of the smoothing process. And it can play a role, and that role can look differently in different households, in different individuals lives.

Casey: In my life, it was My mom was never home because she was always on the [00:14:00] grind, always working. I knew we were poor so I never had the things that all the other kids had and I felt very less than. I always felt I was made fun of as a child. I was It's kind of outcast as a child because I didn't have the cool clothes and I didn't have the cool shoes and all the things that the kids had.

Rex: All the things that were important at that time.

Casey: Exactly. The important things. Um, and then I was also told that I would never go to college because we couldn't afford it. And so having that ingrained in my mind as a child, I was like. Okay, well, if I'm not going to go to college, then what? Then I'm not going to amount to anything.

Casey: So, there was no future for me. Yeah, so.

Rex: Yeah, how do we address that? Other than the obvious of addressing poverty and, and, I mean, I, I just wonder about, because your story, right, gets told over and over again [00:15:00] by a lot of women, a lot of men too, quite frankly. Um, yeah, I wonder, you know, it's almost like a cultural awakening that has to happen.

Rex: Like we, we need to address poverty, but we also need to address, um, those feelings and hopes of children when they're growing up, how detrimental that is to them later on in life. Yeah. If they're not getting that hope and that, and that kind of. support and guidance that they need.

Casey: Yeah, it's almost, there's like this financial poverty, emotional poverty, all these things are contributing.

Casey: And, um, it all contributes, and my team and I, we always say, poverty is the biggest pimp. Because it will cause you to do things that you wouldn't. Normally do.

Rex: Yeah. And that includes your parents.

Casey: Exactly. Yeah. That's why we see young mothers selling their children because they don't have any other way or [00:16:00] means of survival.

Casey: And they think that that's the best option

Rex: when you say selling their Children. You mean pimping them or actually selling them?

Casey: Pimping them?

Rex: Yeah.

Casey: Or both.

Rex: Yeah.

Casey: Yeah. I'm working with a girl right now who was I'm working with Sold by her mother as a child.

Rex: Really? Yeah. Wow. Like how old was she when she was sold?

Casey: Sixteen.

Rex: Just sold to a pimp? Mm

Casey: hmm.

Rex: So into slavery, basically. Yes. Wow. I'm living such a sheltered, privileged life. I just, that just, that just kind of blows my mind that that actually happens.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: I have a good friend. Who, a woman who is in her late

Casey: 20s

Rex: and she has, um, I think what you would say are mental health issues.

Rex: She has a lot of anxiety. I think probably other diagnosis that I don't know about. She for the [00:17:00] last probably eight years has been taking drugs, has had a couple overdoses, recently started waitressing at a strip club and even more recently, uh, has been dancing.

Casey: That's how it goes.

Rex: And, and she is the sweetest woman, and she's smart, she's very attractive, and her parents, who I also know really well, are, are really good people, educated, not in poverty.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: You know, upper middle class for sure, and, and they're distraught. They are, they are there for her, they love her, they're at, they're right at this point of. Do they keep bailing her out, or do they, do they keep loving her? And I know there's not, I'm not asking for a one answer for all, right?

Casey: Sure.

Rex: But, here's the question, and I think it has a broader reach to a lot of people struggling with this.

Rex: And that is, what would you say to this young woman that's in her, I think [00:18:00] she's probably 28? Who appears to be right at that edge that you talked about before you went into prostitution, right? Mm hmm. Um, and what would you say to the parents? To both?

Casey: Oh, well, first, let me think what I would say to her.

Casey: Because sometimes it's hard. Sometimes there's the question of is there anything you can say, right?

Rex: Maybe you're just there to listen and love.

Casey: Right. And, and as someone who has been in those shoes, I think I would just very kindly, lovingly, gently, and truthfully tell her, like I know this is fun right now, but it goes down a really dark path.

Rex: Yeah, and sorry for interrupting, but in your podcast you also relayed that an older stripper Came to you and said I see you I see I see me and you and I just want to tell you To be careful to I think she even said [00:19:00] to get out while you can

Casey: Yeah

Rex: And you I think if I remember correctly you were very touched and moved by her care and and reaching out to you but you also

Casey: I didn't listen.

Casey: You didn't listen. You didn't

Rex: listen. So, maybe that's why you're also saying now that gently, quietly, truthfully.

Casey: I always held what that woman said in the back of my mind, though. That's one thing, is that she planted that seed and it took root. It took a long time to sprout growth, but it stayed there. And so that would be my hope for this young girl that you're referring to is that, that, that truth, that truth seed would take root, um, and that she would hold on to that.

Casey: Um, and, and follow up with that reassurance of like,

Rex: in relationship,

Casey: in, in relationship. Yeah. And as far as her parents, you know, it's a hard thing. I, I'm often asked, how do you help someone who's in addiction? How do [00:20:00] you, what do you do, what do you say, you know, and it's somewhat parallel, right, you see someone going down a path that's not usually going to end well, um, and you want to help them, but they're not seeing the light, right, in my advice to any parent, friend, relative, uh, that is it.

Casey: Seeing this happen to someone they care about is, first take care of yourself. So I would tell her parents, make sure that you have the support that you need as you're walking through this. Because this is just as difficult for you as it is for her. Um, and it's going to be a journey for them as well. To know what their boundaries are.

Casey: Are they going to keep bailing her out? Or are they not?

Rex: And you're going to share more, but I got to ask.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: To know where their boundaries are, I think that's the difficult part right now, is that they're really struggling with their boundary, right? Like, you don't, you don't learn this growing [00:21:00] up, where that boundary is, and, and there's two of them, and, you know, for, uh, for parents as a couple to also be sinking on that line, too, is difficult.

Rex: One might just say, we got to stop. This is craziness. We're going financially under because of this. We're bailing her out out of every situation. And, and yet, the other one, or both, are also saying, we'll never forgive ourselves if she, we find her, you know, dead, or as you said, you know, in a dumpster, right?

Casey: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Rex: So that boundary is really difficult to find.

Casey: It is. Um, I suggest having a third party, a professional come in to talk through that and, and to know, um, you had mentioned we could never forgive ourselves if this happened. We have to remember that the choices that the individual makes are at the responsibility of the individual.

Casey: There's nothing that we can do in and of ourselves to [00:22:00] Change their choices. And we have to relieve ourselves of the guilt of their choices. So if something were to happen, you know, God forbid, my hope is that those parents would know that there's nothing that they could have done. Um, to change the choices that she made.

Casey: So I'm going to just speak life over that girl and that she's going to get through this and she's going to get out and these parents are going to be celebrating and they're all going to be, um, thriving and healthy, um, together. Um, but in the meantime, yeah, that the parents would, yeah, really discover what the boundaries are, whether they talk amongst themselves, talk to other families who are going through the same thing.

Casey: There's support groups, there's professionals, um, And always reassure their daughter that she's loved by them, that she's always welcome home, you know, like

Rex: turn to them when she needs to.

Casey: Yeah, I think that that's a hard thing for a lot [00:23:00] of the women that I meet out there is their parents have abandoned them.

Casey: And once your parents abandon you, it's like. What's what's the point? There's nowhere to turn now.

Rex: Yeah, there's no safe mortgage.

Casey: Yeah

Rex: So what I I think I don't want to connect dots that aren't there but what I think I'm hearing you say is that is that the decision to Continue supporting has less to do with what the industry would say is right or wrong and more to do with Like where your own boundary is Go, go to wherever that line is, but then be aware of, of the moment it starts taking from you in a way that it's no longer healthy for you.

Casey: Yeah. What are you willing to give and what are you not willing to give? You know, what can you do and what can't you do? And having a clear, even maybe write it down, like, this is what I can do and this is what I can't do because it's unhealthy for me and it's unhealthy for the rest of my family.

Rex: [00:24:00] Yeah.

Rex: And share that with the, with her daughter.

Casey: Yeah. I mean,

Rex: yeah.

Casey: If that's going to be helpful.

Rex: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. There's, there's, I know there's so many people that struggle with that. So many parents. Here's another question that I, I would ask and it's born out of the fact that like your story, while it's not unique in its journey, it is rare in how it, how it resolved itself, right?

Rex: I mean, here you are running a nonprofit, making a huge difference in the world and you're on your own healing journey as opposed to your, a continued spiral downward. Right. Right. So how, um, How did you do that? Like, how did you pull out of that? And I know that God played a big part in this for you. But I would also guess that somewhere in there you would say, you know, that you had it within you, right?

Rex: And, and if you had it within you, why not earlier?

Casey: Right. [00:25:00] I just had this conversation with someone yesterday. They were kind of asking me the same thing. Um, you know, I think Because I had been to just about every treatment center in Washington. I had been to every detox. I mean, I was going like once a month.

Casey: I was back at detox, trying to get clean.

Rex: So you were, you were, it was a constant for you to try to get out of, out of this.

Casey: Yeah, I was always trying. Um, and so when it finally, I guess, you know, some terminology that people use is when it finally stuck, right? I don't know if that's how I would say it, but when I finally had The grit and determination was when I realized it was actually my only choice.

Casey: Because the, on the other side of it, was death. Because I came that close to it.

Rex: I know. It's just, yeah. So,

Casey: I mean, I knew it was [00:26:00] It was hell or death, like I either had to go through hell to get clean or I was just gonna die, you know, so I was really faced with that reality.

Rex: hell was more attractive. Yeah.

Rex: Well, that's back to that choice question, right? You know, like you're, you're, you again made. What would, you know, you made a difficult choice, but you only had, you had two choices to pick from at that point in your life.

Casey: Yeah, and going through hell, at least I knew that there was the, the potential of life on the other side.

Casey: There was hope for a future on the other side of going through that dark valley to climb out of the pit that I was in.

Rex: Yeah, and And why not earlier? Is it just, it's just as simple as I didn't, I

Casey: wasn't ready. I wasn't ready. And I think that facing death was such a huge wake up call. [00:27:00] It was, I was face to face with reality and it was very sobering.

Rex: You know, uh, In architecture, I'm going to do an architecture analogy, which all my friends, you know, are getting, or they're just tired of architecture or soccer, but I don't know you that well, I'll throw in, you know, like in design, you just suffer through trying to get to the solution. Right. And when you get it, you know it.

Rex: And it's such a beautiful moment, but that could be hundreds and hundreds of hours. And, and the stroke, usually when you find it is so simple, you go, why didn't I do this earlier? And I, I used to think about like, what am I doing that's prolonging getting to the solution? And I wonder the same with people getting out of addiction or out of whatever pit they're in if there is a formulaic shortcut, right?

Rex: Like when you think about your journey, cause you had a lot of low points, right? It wasn't just. It, it certainly wasn't just that moment when you [00:28:00] were, when you, um, thought you were going to die in the bathtub there and you were making this, this conversation or this bargain with God, I guess. Um, you had, you had a lot of points when you were pretty low and you could have said, this is, this is crazy.

Rex: I got to change this and then started that recovery and never experienced the rest of it.

Casey: Yeah. You know, I think, because, and I think about the time when I was battling with CPS, and I was trying so hard to get clean and stay clean, and, you know, that was a moment in my life where I was like, I'm done, I'm ready to be, like, I don't want this anymore.

Casey: I think the difference between that moment, and the moment when, The bathtub moment was that I didn't feel hope and people weren't speaking hope and a future into my life. I didn't see a light at [00:29:00] the end of the tunnel. I knew that there, there was, but I felt the entire world against me. That moment in the bathtub, I felt such a hope and a light and a future because that was what I was getting from God in that moment.

Rex: Yeah, that's beautifully said, so that makes that's crystal clear, right? In those dark moments before you didn't have the hope to counterbalance it, right?

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: Do you think, uh, I know that was a profoundly beautiful and important point in your life. Do you think that that hope could, uh, like, could there be a stand in for God like a friend?

Rex: You Like, do you think that

Casey: that's what people can

Rex: do for each other?

Casey: Absolutely. If we have, because there is so much power in the words that we speak. You know, at that moment before, I had society and everyone, like, [00:30:00] telling me all these negative things. But if we have people in our lives that are saying there is hope, you do have a future, you are valuable.

Casey: You're worth living. Like, you have something to offer this world, and to speak words of encouragement, words of life, words of purpose, and identity over us. That can come up against the lies of, you know, darkness. And it can break it. It can break those lies and we have to combat the evil with the good and we have to continue to drive in those those words of affirmation and identity and purpose over individuals and to them.

Rex: Yeah, I love that. You know, what's also beautiful about that is that's something we can all do.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: Right. It's not like you don't have to be a specialist.

Casey: Right.

Rex: Right. A love specialist or a hope specialist. You can just be a human being that cares about somebody [00:31:00] else. Right. Here's another question for you.

Rex: Being that most people, um, you know, don't have a lot of knowledge about the sex industry and it's taboo and it's behind the curtain. Um, I think the general person in public doesn't know who the prostitute is, who the pimp is, and who the john is. They're just, they're just people out there. And probably people that would fall under one simple heading of the negative stereotype, and that is, they're bad people.

Casey: Hmm.

Rex: Right.

Casey: That's so sad. That makes my heart so sad because they're not bad people. They are doing things that aren't good, right? Um, and not helpful to themselves or to others, but they are precious, loved,

Rex: um,

Casey: adored.

Rex: Yeah, that's such a shaming, uh, uh, description, right? They're bad people.

Casey: So,

Rex: so [00:32:00] who is the prostitute?

Casey: I would say the prostitute is the young girl that is just needing family and community and acceptance. Yeah, just trying to survive. And care for herself and care for those around her. Most of the women that I know who are in prostitution or have come out of prostitution, they're nurturers. They're caregivers.

Casey: Like, that is in their nature and their identity and makeup as a human being. That's how they were created.

Rex: That makes me, um, my tears, actually make my eyes well up because, you know, nurturers, first of all, are just so beautiful. And, and then to have to suffer under the The larger negative stereotype is, it feels cruel.

Casey: Mm hmm. Yeah, so they're, they're loving, caring, nurturing individuals deep down. Like that's, that's the piece of their identity [00:33:00] that needs to be drawn out because that's the beauty. Um, so.

Rex: And, uh, and the pimp.

Casey: And the pimp.

Rex: Who is the pimp?

Casey: I would say the pimp is a young, scared boy, just trying to survive and be a man the way he was taught, or society has taught him to be a man.

Casey: A lot of the pimps are born into this. It's a family business, so they weren't really given a choice. They were also groomed into

Rex: They were also a skipping stone.

Casey: Yeah, absolutely, a hundred percent. They either grew up, their mom was a prostitute, and so they saw You know how they saw the business model.

Casey: They saw it and it was normal. It was it was normal and It was actually something that was glamorized and celebrated and so to step into that role was was an honor Likely to to the family. [00:34:00] He's gonna be powerful. He's gonna be strong. He's gonna you know, and

Rex: Is part of that mindset the objectification and dominance of the woman?

Rex: I mean, there, it feels like the pimp, and again, this is coming from, from, you know, being naive. Uh, but is there, does that have to be part of it for control? Like, like, how does that dynamic actually work? What do you

Casey: mean? The control?

Rex: Control of the woman.

Casey: Mm hmm.

Rex: You know, is that typically part of the process?

Rex: Or is it a mutually agreed upon

Casey: It's all different. I see. There's different types of pimps. There's gorilla pimps, there's boyfriend pimps, there's CEO pimps. Like, there's so many different roles or types of, um Like, dynamics in, in pimping. And so, for example, I've been under gorilla pimps that use, like, guerrilla, like, guerrilla warfare.

Casey: They use force. They use control. They use abuse. I've been under that. I've also [00:35:00] been with boyfriend pimps. So just, like, it's like a romantic thing. And it's kind of, like, you're just, that's where it feels more of, like, a mutual. agreement. We're, we're ride or die. Like, we're gonna ride this out together and I'm going to take care of you and you're going to take care of me.

Casey: And it's kind of that mutual business agreement. Um, so there's, there's a lot of different ways that that looks, but I'll say like the, the, the makeup and identity of a pimp is someone that is also a protector and a provider and someone that is Someone that is there to lead, right? They're strong, powerful leaders.

Casey: It's just life, circumstance, and society has put them, the gifts and the strengths that they have, have been used against them, and perverted into this outlet.

Rex: I love that you, you took, [00:36:00] uh, these very negative roles and saw the beauty. In the person for each, you know, I, I, I think that's, um, something that most people haven't heard.

Rex: Like I've never heard that before, right? It's all been negative. Yeah. And what about the John, the person that's actually out there looking to buy sex or take part?

Casey: I see the John as someone who has a deep wound and is needing to have that filled. There's an emptiness and they're looking somewhere to have that filled and that can come out and just like, Hey, I'm lonely.

Casey: It can come out and like, Oh, I have this, this fantasy, this, um, inquenchable thirst, like hunger that That, um,

Rex: it isn't being, that isn't being met,

Casey: right? So usually they're looking to sex and to buy [00:37:00] prostitutes and to try to live out these fantasies, um, to meet that need that's lacking in their, in their heart, right?

Casey: Um, but it isn't. The piece that fits in their heart.

Rex: It's not what's missing.

Casey: It's not what's missing. It soothes for the time being, and it gives, you know, like, um, uh, It gives a rush, right? And it can feel really good, but then it just leaves them feeling more empty than before. And I, and I, and I saw that a lot with the Johns that I would meet with.

Casey: There was A need they were needing to fill, and they were looking to me, and I wasn't able to fill that.

Rex: Yeah. There's so much, um, hurt and sadness and, and trauma involved in the three. Those, the relationship between, you know, the prostitute, the pimp, and the john, right? Mm

Casey: hmm.

Rex: Is there a scenario in your mind, if, if those relationships were [00:38:00] all healthy, where it would Or, or, let me ask you this, this way.

Rex: Is there a scenario where that can be healthy? Like where there isn't pain and hurt and trauma being produced in those relationships?

Casey: I don't really under, you mean between the dynamic of the three?

Rex: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in other words, can it be normalized where it's not seen as a big negative? Is, is it, is there a place for that in society?

Rex: Because you do have You do have men that are, that are feeling, uh, lonely and unfulfilled. Uh, I'm not sure where I'm going with this yet. Other than, I just see it as a, as a problem to solve in a sense. Is there a, is there a healthy scenario where, where all of those roles still continue? Um, but it's not, it's not filled with so much, um, you know, pain and suffering.

Casey: Um, honestly, I, [00:39:00] I would really have to think about it more, but I don't think so because I don't think that we're meant to as women. I don't think that we're meant to attach in that intimate of a way with someone. On a regular basis, just to be ripped apart again, you know, when there's when you have that type of physical intimacy without the emotional intimacy and having that put together and it's just,

Rex: it's just transactional.

Rex: It's

Casey: just transactional. And I don't that that's not healthy for the woman. And I think that no matter And probably not

Rex: healthy for the man either. And not healthy for

Casey: the man. But also, the power dynamic between whoever is in charge, whoever is selling, whether that be a pimp or an establishment, like say a brothel or something like that.

Casey: Like if we're talking about legalizing this in Seattle, that establishment [00:40:00] or that pimp would have a powerhold over that. to where it's still, there's still an oppression, right? She's still being oppressed. And as far as. The buyer, we just need to bring it into the light. The things that are lacking, the emotional and physical needs that are lacking in individuals lives.

Casey: To find a healthy way to care for the men in our society. That's what it boils down to. We look at this, and yes, if a woman is being trafficked, or a young girl is being trafficked, she's the victim. We need to also, and this is what I do in my organization, is Look at the men, too, and care for the men. We need to be supporting and, and caring for the pimps and the buyers.

Casey: You know, what resources and what supports [00:41:00] do they need to heal and get out of the cycle? Why are they

Rex: engaging in this to begin with? Right. So what's missing?

Casey: And that's, I believe that that's where it starts. It starts with the men.

Rex: How linked are drugs in the sex industry? And do you think, I'm just going to throw two or three questions out, because I think they're all related.

Rex: Do you think we should have needle exchanges and safe injection sites? And how has fentanyl changed the street scene? Because I know for the homeless it has, it's completely turned it upside down, right?

Casey: Yeah. . Um, I'm so curious who wrote that question about the needle exchange and safe injection sites?

Casey: 'cause I have a lot to say . Um, but what's the first question is how linked are they? Basically? Yeah,

Rex: like, like if you, if you see, you know, people stripping or you see prostituting or, or any of the sex industry type of activities. Is drugs always involved?

Casey: Yeah, so [00:42:00] I'm not going to say that it is always 100 percent involved because I can't make that blatant statement for every, um, person who's working in, in the sex industry.

Casey: However, it is highly linked. Whether that be um, hard drugs or alcohol or weed there's, there's usually something, um, that someone, that, there's usually a substance that someone is using to cope and to soothe. while they're doing this with their body that they weren't created to do, right?

Rex: It's a bridge over

Casey: it.

Casey: It is. Yeah.

Rex: Safe injection sites. Yeah.

Casey: Um, so, you know, I'm a Christian and I'm, you know, I lean more conservative, conservative Christian and I feel, and that's where people are like, really? Um, because I really feel strongly about having needle exchanges. I think that Needle [00:43:00] exchanges are so important that it saves people's lives.

Casey: Needle exchange saved my life. Because when I was getting high, I was going to get high and no one was going to stop me. And I don't care if I had to go find a needle out of a dumpster, I was going to use it. And I actually have done that. I've used and I've shared needles with people that I really shouldn't have.

Casey: And by the grace of God, I didn't get. Any diseases or anything, but

Rex: you're saying is in that moment like like, you know, the just say no campaign, right? Mm hmm Just use a safe needle, you know clean needle. That's when you're when you're looking for drugs. That's not an option

Casey: It's not an option. So My stance is that from experience and from looking at the larger picture, yes, needle exchanges are so important.

Casey: If I didn't have access to clean needles when I did, I probably wouldn't be here today, honestly. As far as safe [00:44:00] injection sites, I I'll also say that I, from my research, from my personal research, I would say that they're not a bad idea. Because if we have people who are getting high and using on the streets, we are having people who are ODing and dying on the streets.

Casey: If we have A safe injection site with trained medical staff that can oversee and make sure that people have the clean paraphernalia that they need. It's really just meeting them where they're at, right, because they're going to do it regardless. So it's providing a safe place for them to do what they're going to do.

Casey: I think that, you know, having it, having it controlled, we are giving people the opportunity to live through. Another day with the hope of getting clean and sober and giving back to society one day.

Rex: Yeah, I've heard, [00:45:00] too, that at safe injection sites, you do have the opportunity for a loving person to plant that seed like you were talking about earlier, like saying, hey, you're You know, you're beautiful and you're amazing and, and I hope you're going to be okay.

Rex: Um, glad you're here. You know, providing, providing that love and hope that maybe today doesn't work, but maybe in two days does or in two months or whatever. Yeah. I think one of the big concerns that you hear is that you're just promoting drug use.

Casey: Mm.

Rex: Yeah. Tell me why that's ridiculous.

Casey: It's because, and like, you know, I've I've said this repeatedly is people are going to do it anyways.

Casey: It's not promoting just the same way if I'm giving condoms out on Aurora. I'm not promoting prostitution. I am saving a life for someone who is going to do this anyways. Right?

Rex: It's not like, uh, to [00:46:00] flip the story and say somebody that's not using walks past a safe injection site and suddenly says, Hey, I think I'm going to.

Rex: I'm going to go in and start using

Casey: right,

Rex: right. That doesn't,

Casey: right.

Rex: That doesn't feel like that's the issue here.

Casey: Yeah. And I haven't, from my research, I haven't heard that that has been a thing that people,

Rex: I don't think that is a,

Casey: I don't, I have been not. It's a worry. It's a worry. And, and that's, I mean, I guess that's a valid worry, right?

Casey: We want to be concerned for society, um, and our community, um, but, I mean, and that's where I'm sure that there's ways around making sure that that isn't the case.

Rex: No

Casey: first time users.

Rex: Yeah. Well, and, and, I mean, I can only speak from my experience, but I can tell you at no time in my life. Would have I just walked past a drug use situation, safe or unsafe, that I would have said, Hey, I think I'm going to try that.

Rex: Right. Now I'm not, that's just [00:47:00] me, but um, I wonder, I wonder what the general population, the experience for that would actually be. I think drug use comes from a, it's not like, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to try, I'm going to try the roller coaster this time at the park. I don't think drug use. Works that way.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: Especially, especially heavy drugs. I could be wrong. I think myself talking. Yeah, I think

Casey: it can happen that way sometimes, but not often.

Rex: That, that, that's a, this might all get edited because I feel like I'm really out there on this. But I feel, uh, that even in that moment of just walking by, you're never just in that moment.

Rex: Like 10 people walk past, you have to look at. Their life makeup. What brought them to that point. Right. What allowed them to be at the point where they're going to say, Oh, I think I want to, I think I want to try this.

Casey: Right.

Rex: You know, it's not just like a level playing field.

Casey: Well, and if you're walking by and you are a [00:48:00] productive member of society and you are seen the type of people who are walking in there.

Casey: I mean, let's call it what it is. If, when I was using, I was not anything that anyone's like, oh, I want to go do what she's doing. You know what I mean? Like, when I, when I was, right? Like, it's not like, oh, that looks attractive. I want to go be like those people.

Rex: I want to draw a little bit of a question into community involvement.

Casey: Mm

Rex: hmm. So, like, facing homelessness, we had a Just Say Hello campaign. Right? We were encouraging people to walk up and, and make eye contact and say hello to folks that were struggling outside, to do whatever they could in a human way, right? Does that apply to people in the sex industry as well? Yeah.

Rex: Because, and I'll say this one, one quick thing, is that part of that is to get people in the community up close so they can begin to get involved, right? [00:49:00] But also people that are homeless feel invisible. They feel, they feel like they've been completely extricated from society, they're, you know, they, they don't even believe they exist anymore.

Rex: Especially people that are living chronically homeless.

Casey: Mm hmm.

Rex: I wonder, in the sex industry, where is the entry point for community to get involved?

Casey: That's a good question, and I think I would also want to think about that a little bit more. But, um, I think we need to start with the same, you know, parallel to The just say hello is just see them as human, you know, don't, there was a quote and I can't think of it, um, off the top of my head, but it's like, let's humanize the woman on the other side of the dollar, you know, let's humanize.

Casey: The lost little boy that has been trapped in this cycle of being [00:50:00] abused and now abusing others and oppressing others. Let's humanize, let's find that identity, let's see people as they were created to be and not what the world has placed on them. The villain

Rex: that we've made them into. Right. Yeah,

Casey: exactly.

Rex: I think you're right. I think it's our, the shift has to start first with our, our lens. How are we looking at this situation? Are we seeing the humanity or are we seeing, you know, the, the end result of a lot of trauma and a lot of, of hurt that's, that's on the street?

Casey: Exactly. And the more that we project that on them, the more they're going to identify and align with it.

Casey: And we don't want people to align and identify with it.

Rex: With the negative side of,

Casey: right.

Rex: Yeah. Yeah. That, that, when you say it that way, it, it takes me back to your earlier advice about seeing. Seeing the goodness in each person, right? Like, [00:51:00] seeing the nurturer, seeing the helper in that person, and drawing that out.

Casey: Look at the drug dealer and see a businessman. A dang good businessman, you know? Yeah,

Rex: he's making more money than I am.

Casey: You know? Like, they know how to I look at a drug dealer and I'm like, Man, you know how to advertise, you know how to market, you know how to, you know, like Collect. You know how to How to sell with your, with your mouth, right?

Casey: Like, you know how to

Rex: Yeah, yeah.

Casey: Like, they're skilled, talented people.

Rex: Yeah. I just love this idea, though, that in life, it's just, I think it's universal. The more that you see the goodness in somebody else, the more that comes back to you. The more, the more that's what you see in that person, and the more they can believe it as well.

Casey: Exactly. Just draw it out of them. Start speaking over them.

Rex: Okay. Those were my questions. Okay. So, so here are, I'm just going to give, we got a lot of questions from people, people really enjoyed. Uh, listening to you. [00:52:00] This is from a call from Valley City, North Dakota. Uh, her questions are what did your current, what does your current recovery and healing journey look like?

Rex: And secondly, are you triggered often when going into clubs?

Casey: Um, triggered often? No, that doesn't mean that I haven't been triggered. And there's usually, uh, there's usually another. Um, event happening in my life that is making me sensitive to being triggered. For example, one time I was in, um, facing some financial struggles and I was really stressed out about how I was going to come up with some money.

Casey: And I was doing outreach that night and I went into a strip club and the thing that went through my mind was like, man, I could take anything. Everyone in here for every dollar that they have and that was the thought that I had. I was like, I could get on that stage right now and take this whole room for their money.

Casey: So I finished doing my outreach and I [00:53:00] walked back to the car with my friend and I was like, I just need to get this off my chest. This is what I'm going through, you know? And so there are moments when I can be triggered in different ways, and that's just an example of one, but I think that part of the healing process, which is the other part of the question, is that I am really I'm really transparent with my team and the support people that I have in my life.

Casey: I, I see a counselor. I have, um, like a life coach that I see and I, we do a group session with other people and it's just my, my time with other women where I'm, I am honest, transparent. uh, vulnerable. I give them permission to push back, to ask questions, to speak into my life, to challenge me, to hold me accountable.

Casey: And also they're there to support and encourage me. Yeah. The healing process is continuing to do what I know God has called me to [00:54:00] do. And sometimes that is scary things. Sometimes I have to do scary things and go to scary places, but there's always. It's a treasure everywhere I go.

Rex: Yeah. It feels like, um, I'm hearing an honesty about your journey and yourself that a lot of people don't ever get to in their life, right?

Rex: Like I'm feeling that right now, right? Like I'm, like, would you say it's fair that what you've been through and then coming out of that has, has like opened you in a way that, to be honest with yourself, that

Casey: might

Rex: be more difficult for other people to get to?

Casey: I know I wouldn't say it's just because I've been out of it.

Casey: I think that I had to do a lot of intentional work to be able to get to the place of being honest with myself, being honest with God and being honest with others. Shame is an enemy. And as long as we're in shame and we are trying to hide parts of ourself, we are in, [00:55:00] we are keeping ourself in bondage. And so complete freedom is breaking that Bond of shame and that comes with intentional like soul searching and introspection and community and being Open and honest with community and that's where a lot of healing happens

Rex: having a place in community.

Rex: Yeah, that's beautiful Thank you for that answer Okay, this is from faith who is from Seattle, Washington And her questions are what would have helped her? Uh, you, Casey, at each phase of your journey, and it seemed like some people tried to help her but were unsuccessful. What would have made the difference?

Rex: And I, I think she's specifically talking about this elderly, older dancer.

Casey: What was the first part of the question?

Rex: Yep. The first one was, what would have helped you at each phase of your journey? Like, Were there things missing as you were, as you were going through, you know, the various, um, [00:56:00] struggles?

Casey: Yeah, I think that I had, you know, at the different stages, there were, uh, certain individuals at different stages that were like kind of an anchor for me, an anchor of peace or strength that I could just barely cling to.

Casey: I think what was missing is the support from. And that the help and resources from law enforcement and professionals, if I had had that, where I truly felt that they cared and there was a trust built, I think I would have, things would have been

Rex: different, come to it quicker.

Casey: And my experience was that, and I'm not saying that law enforcement is bad.

Casey: I, you know, work closely with law enforcement today. Yeah. Um. But my experience was that I didn't trust them. They weren't safe. They [00:57:00] had actually, like, done me dirty a couple times. You know, like

Rex: They were, they were acting outside of their job in a way they shouldn't be.

Casey: Yeah. And so, I, there wasn't trust there.

Casey: And then, there were on occasion, those officers that I believe truly did care and had that compassion for me and we're really trying to help, but because of my other experience, I didn't trust them. Yeah,

Rex: you weren't open to it.

Casey: Do

Rex: you think, I mean, I'm going to guess this is a leading question, but I'm going to guess it's less of a character flaw and more of a lack of training, like is there just, you know, is it

Casey: Maybe, yeah.

Casey: Or

Rex: maybe not.

Casey: Yeah, well, it could be probably both, you know, and I think they also are Police officers have such tough jobs, like to have compassion and, and persistent consistency, like to [00:58:00] reach people that takes a lot of time, energy, emotional, like

Rex: emotional stamina.

Casey: Yeah. And I don't think that.

Rex: And mix in fear and danger, right?

Rex: With all that.

Casey: Like that's just asking a whole lot of one human individual. And so I think with, um, you know, I think about our social workers and case workers, I think smaller caseloads and shorter hours give them more depth in relationship. We need to go deep, not wide is basically what it is. And I think that that's where, uh, the switch needs to happen in order for people to really feel.

Casey: The safety and security that they need to grab someone's hand for help. And so

Rex: the one thing that is constant in the work of homelessness, and I'm guessing it is for the work that you do as well. It all comes back to relationship.

Casey: Mm hmm.

Rex: I mean doesn't matter where you start it leads [00:59:00] to the answer the authenticity of relationship.

Rex: Uh, is directly tied to the success of the endeavor.

Casey: Yep.

Rex: You know, whatever it is you're doing, if you're, if you're creating a genuine, authentic relationship with another human being, you're both kind of like, you know, cycling at the same rate that, that allows for that healing and that connection and, and the solutions as well.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: So, okay. So here's the last question. Okay. This is from, uh, Natalie from St. Louis, uh, Missouri. She first starts with a comment. She says, Amazed by this story and so thankful she shared it. So hard to hear all that happened to her, but so powerful too. What a beautiful and courageous woman. Yeah. So, here's the question, which I think it's a good one to answer on with you.

Rex: I'm interested to hear more about her faith. For example, when she was being held hostage, did she lean in on God? Did she feel abandoned by God? Did her faith increase later? Was it the moment in the bathtub?

Casey: Hmm, and that was [01:00:00] Natalie?

Rex: Mm hmm, that's Natalie.

Casey: Thank you, Natalie, for your, um, initial comment.

Casey: That was, touched my heart. Um, Thank you. Um, so, the moments when I was being held hostage, I don't think I ever, I don't think I was ever angry with God. I think I just felt very disconnected from God. I, there were moments when I would cry out to God, and I don't know if I shared this in the podcast, but I remember specifically a moment, I had just been beat and raped, and I was walking down, Aurora, and I was barefoot, and it was dark, and I could barely see out of my eyes.

Casey: And I just remember I was walking over broken glass, and cars were racing by me, and I knew that I had nowhere to turn. I had a phone [01:01:00] on me, but I didn't have anyone to call, because I had burned every bridge that I had. No one would answer my call. And so I just was completely alone and desperate and hurting.

Casey: And I was looking at my hands and I just cried out to God and I said, God, I used to be like a fun child with hopes and dreams. How did my life get to here? And I just felt so sad and lost and desperate and In that moment, knowing that God was listening to me, even if he wasn't, like, answering my prayer, I knew he was listening, was the one place that I found peace and comfort, was just, at least someone is listening.

Casey: Because no one else would listen to me. I could have stood on Aurora and screamed at [01:02:00] the top of my lungs, and cars would have just continued to drive by. So, in those low moments, I did, I did lean into God. And I was really honest with God, and I told God I'm going to die a heroin addict unless you save me, unless you pull me out, because I, there's nothing that I can do.

Casey: And so, I'm, I'm grateful that I never From from what I remember now, I don't ever remember getting resentful at God. I was confused and I was angry with my situation, but I think that I always pressed in and just kept. Trying to hold on to God. Now, with that being said, I am not saying that because being angry at God is a bad thing.

Casey: I tell people all the time, if [01:03:00] you're angry with God, get angry with him. He can take it. I cuss him out all the time, you guys. I do, because I get angry about things. Um, but, yeah, I think that's the beautiful thing about God and about faith, is that you can be truly Raw and authentic, and it's okay. You can be all that you are, laid all out on the table, and you will never be rejected or turned aside.

Rex: Do you think, uh, okay, I'll lay it out there.

Casey: Okay.

Rex: So I was raised Catholic, right? Went to Catholic grade school, went to Jesuit high school. Um, for me, it never connected,

I'll just say

Rex: it never connected, and, and that's okay, and I've, uh, I, it used to bother me, actually, quite a bit, and I would get into arguments about God and such with friends that believed, and, and I, I've come to a really beautiful place, I think, where I, I think, you know, we're all on our personal journey, we find [01:04:00] spirituality in different ways, um, I don't think there's a right way, is how I feel.

Rex: But one thing I have noticed over the last, 12, 13 years of meeting a lot of people that are homeless outside, is the depth of spirituality is much deeper, at least from how I perceive it in the people in my life that are religious who are living very comfortable, privileged lives, versus people that I meet that are outside struggling without basic needs being met.

Rex: It, it makes sense to me, right? Like what you, how you just described it is you don't have anybody else in your life at that moment. And so your relationship with God is deeper, richer, more authentic, um, more pressing, right? Um, is that an accurate, is that like, I'm just wondering about that, like how God shows up

Casey: for people in need.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: You know,

Casey: the Bible says that God meets the [01:05:00] brokenhearted. You know, and so I think that as you're seeing this depth of spirituality and like relation people having these deep relationships with God as they're living homeless and in addiction and all these things, all this trauma is God is meeting them because God is tending to their hearts and not to say that God doesn't tend to the heart of like the rich and mighty.

Casey: Absolutely. But, um, I think that it does. It does create for a more tender experience with God, spiritually.

Rex: Yeah. I would say I've learned a lot from people living outside. But that's one of the big ones that has washed over me is like how, how beautifully authentic that relationship is for people outside.

Rex: Um, and I'm, I'm grateful for that, for them, right? Like it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So, and I hear that in your voice, too, right? Like how important that is.

Casey: I think you're right. [01:06:00] Everyone's, um, everyone's journey, everyone's spirituality is different, but I also look at, like, the work that I'm doing, the work that you're doing, the work that so many other people are doing by helping others, whether they're doing it in the name of God or not.

Casey: We're all doing God's work.

Rex: It's all the same.

Casey: You're doing God's work. It's just, it's just looks different, you know, or it is just not under that banner. Right.

Rex: We can call the same thing many names. Yeah. Right.

Casey: And it's restoring the earth and restoring humanity and restoring creation. So it's a beautiful thing and I'm so grateful to be able to run alongside you on this journey and to like link arms with you in, in, in the dirty work to bring beauty out of the mire, you know?

Rex: Yeah, the same. And I'm very [01:07:00] grateful that we got to meet and have this conversation.

Casey: Yeah.

Rex: Casey's sharing of her first hand experiences of falling into and then finding her way out of the sex industry gives us an opportunity to move past the debilitating and hurtful societal understanding we have of sex workers.

Rex: We can begin to change the narrative by seeing the individual, their beauty, and their worth. Casey and her team at Light of Love remind us that the limited choice is brought by trauma. Have people living unintended lives, often ones with very little hope. She will tell you, through the loving light found in relationships, we can begin healing our community.

Rex: Casey and her team are tireless in their mission. If you'd like to learn more about their work or look into volunteer opportunities, please visit lightofloveseattle. org. We have also added some Light [01:08:00] of Love links on our website at youknowmenow. com. You Know Me Now is a project under the non profit Facing Homelessness.

Rex: It is produced, written, and edited by Tomasz Bernatski and me, Rex Holbein. Please join us on our very active Facebook pages, Facing Homelessness and also You Know Me Now, where you can join in on the conversation. A heartfelt thank you to Casey for sharing so openly with us, and to all of you for listening.