Before we get started, please know that this is part three of the episode, People Don't Change, They Heal. If you have not already listened to parts one and two, we recommend you do so as it will give context to what David shares in this third and final part of the episode. On another note, we want to let you know, Real Change, the award winning street newspaper in Seattle, featured an article I wrote titled, Just Say Hello.

It is a call for all of us to increase our knowledge on homelessness by simply coming closer. You can find it in their July 10th issue. Real Change provides opportunity and a voice to people with low income or experiencing homelessness while taking action for economic, social, and racial justice. You can find them at realchangenews.

org, or for just 2, you can pick up a copy from your local Seattle Street vendor, which I would strongly recommend. As is the case with most of our episodes, this podcast contains potentially sensitive topics and strong language. Listener discretion is advised.

There is no allyship without relationship. Folks be like, well, how can I help? Just to ask a question like, well, how can I be supportive and how can I help? Well, I think you're thinking about it wrong. I think you want a 10 point plan on what it looks like to, to, to, to be viewed as helping if you want to really and genuinely help.

You get in relationship that that's going to tell you how to be there for me. You're going to know how to be there for me because we're in relationship and how you be there for me is going to be different than how you be there for somebody else who just might happen to look like me. I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to, you know, me now a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community.

In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of vulnerability and courage. They share a common hope that by giving all of us a window into their world, they're opening an increased level of awareness, understanding, and perhaps most importantly, a connection within our own community.

In this episode with David, I wanted to talk with him about the work he has been doing since leaving the prison system. But before we dive into the Freedom Project and the Black Rose Collective, I asked David to talk a bit about restorative justice. You want to be able to talk a little bit about restorative justice because it's at the center of your work, you know, as I was thinking about this earlier, you know, I said, I think if you took 10 people walking out of office buildings downtown and you stopped him and asked him to talk about restorative justice.

Wow. I don't know if I don't know if one or two would really know what restorative justice is. Yeah. So can you, can you share that? What does that, what does that mean to you? The term restorative justice, restorative justice. Um, the restorative justice is, is, is really, uh, I think the root word is to restore.

I think if we had a magic wand, what I would love for us to be able to heal, I would heal people as we heal and get connected to our humanity, we're able to connect to other people's humanity. And when we're connected to our collective humanity. I think all the strategies are going to represent that connectiveness.

I think that our present systems are disconnected from our humanity. And so, in a way, when we're separated from other people's humanity, It separates us from our own. We lose a little bit of our own. And in that space is where we create punitive systems in our belief that it's not about restoring, restoring relationships, restoring to a place where we can stay connected as a community.

And as a society, the effectiveness of restorative justice lies in its humanizing approach towards all individuals, recognizing their pain and suffering while. Prioritizing healing over punitive measures. It represents a more compassionate and accurate method of addressing such issues as it promotes accountability and personal growth.

This approach nurtures empathy, comprehension, and reconciliation, fostering positive long term outcomes for everyone involved and communities. And, and, and I think that that's, that's. What we're striving for when we're talking about, um, the society we aspire to live in is one that is connected with compassion, with empathy, and with care.

The opposite of love isn't hate, it's fear. And that's such a powerful way of really looking at it if you think about it, right? Um, because if you think about what we do in the name of fear, right? And if you think about what we, what we have, um, when we talk about hate when it's there, it usually comes from this This base perspective of fear, these fears of, of the unknown of, of what's different or your safety or your, you know what I mean?

Your, your security, your sustainability. I think we got to do this work in love. And I, and that's what I appreciate about restorative justice. These are strategies and a means in which to try to do so. I asked David about his relationship with accountability. I wanted to know what it looks like to both be accountable and, at the same time, allow yourself to heal.

I believe that accountability with relationship feels like love and accountability without relationship feels like abuse. There's this way of folks who care about you Can hold you accountable when you caused harm or when you've, when you've done wrong. I think that we've navigated through a society that have constructed these systems that have always had this messaging of a lack of care.

The systems don't feel like accountability. They feel like punishment, right? I think that me doing my work. And, and healing and being able to show up for the community and add the value that I, whatever value I could add is important in the sense of trying to heal the wrongs. I mean, I know some of the wrongs I could never heal and I have to, you know, And I think that's just a reality and, and I, and I hope that folks would, um, lean in a little bit to at least close enough to see, uh, how I'm showing up now and who I, who I, who I am.

It takes a fine line. It's a fine line walking that and it's especially when you're having to answer it as opposed to somebody. It's easy to advocate for somebody else's child and for somebody else's humanity and make sure that it's seen. Um, it's, it's, it's easy. Um, I think when it's, um, It's coming from me.

I think it always sounds self serving. And so there's not much I can say. Yeah. I want to tell you that I never feel that way when you talk about it, about you. And the reason I'm asking that question is for people that don't know you. Maybe speak a little bit more into this, um, idea of accountability in relationship is love and, and accountability without relationship is abuse.

I think when, when somebody loves you or is in relationship with you and knows you and you know they care and you know they know you, right? Um, there's something about letting them down. There's something about letting my community down, right? When I showed up and I caused harm and I used, I was bleeding out over my community and my trauma, right?

There's something about that cuts. Right? And you want to do better, right? Just because you value the relationship. That's the power of love. Yeah. That's the power of love. And so that's when, so when somebody you're in relationship says, stop doing that, you know, that they didn't considered you. They see you and they're saying it because they love you.

And so if they're telling you to stop doing something, then it can't be good for you. Right. And for nobody else, but also for you, right? Like it comes from this place where, you know, they care and it just lands different when you know that the person who, who was trying to hold you accountable really does care for you.

The other piece is, Navigating through systems that you know don't care about you. Right. You see disproportionately, you know, they send our kids to the adult system at a higher rate just because they black, right. They, they, uh, um, they give our, they give our youth and they give folks just because of who you are more time.

They, they, they hire you less just, you know, if they see your name, they hire you less if it sounds, um, close to your, you know, uh, ethnic or whatever the case, I think, I think you get so much messaging in a society that there isn't much care. Or space that's really made for you. And then when you add on this system that that's, that's supposed to be in charge of holding you accountable, it's start, you start to get easier to be able to understand why it feels like abuse.

Thank you for trying to answer that difficult question. I think the fine line that you're having to walk, you, you're, you're touching onto both sides of that, right. And trying to share that complexity with us and that they seem at odds with each other, right? Like here you are trying to heal. And the more you heal.

It requires the people that are watching you heal to actually be championing for you and say, Yeah, you can leave this moment. But there are other people that would see the moment and say, No, I don't want you to leave it, you know, because you did this thing, right? And I think if we're really in relationship, then we would want you, Anybody that's in relationship with you would want you to leave it and become the healthy, beautiful, best version of yourself.

That everybody, everybody benefits from that. And that would be an easy thing to see and feel when they love you. Yeah. And, um, when I'm able to step outside of myself, right? And really look at the impacts of it. Um, I can have a different conversation, right? And that conversation is like, when you refuse to allow for somebody to, to, to heal.

And, and, and, and, and give them space to be able to show up differently in the world. I think sometimes we don't realize how that might contribute to the problem in the sense of when we, we get, we see somebody get released and they go back after six months and we talk about how. How dumb a decision that was and, and how they didn't get it.

And, but what they don't see is when they got out, they took, you know, took all the classes they needed to take. They had, they, they, they, they was ready to go and they're trying to put the pieces of their life together. Um, they're dealing with their CCO. They're looking for jobs. Um, they're trying to find good housing, you know, at the moment.

They're in transitional housing and they're trying to put these pieces of their life together. They don't realize that. They've been out six months and, um, they put in for 30 jobs and all of them said no. In every situation they had to go in, they had to lead with their background. They had to go in there and they had the, at the fear being judged, at the fear of, of, of them, something they're saying being held against them in that moment.

They have to go through that. It might be super emotional from them because It's difficult, right? It's difficult to relive the most, the thing that you have the most shame about over and over again. Yeah. And then we're talking about housing, you know, you want to, you want to get housing and you have to go through this same process, right?

And then you get the impacts on the daily of folks who, who refuse to see you as the person that's standing in front of them. They refuse to see that. They always see you for your mistakes and see you for maybe the harm you cause or the decisions that you made that, that, that brought, took you to that situation and circumstance.

And so after six months of this, folks are surprised that in dealing with the pressure of having to deal with a CCO and a society that doesn't want them, and, Trying to heal from a trauma that keeps getting re, uh, uh, re, re triggered and re aggravated and, uh, um, every time you have to, uh, put your shame on the table and it gets used as the reason and rationale for why you don't get this resource, why you don't get the, uh, this, this, this, this, this job or this housing opportunity.

It's like a shadow. It follows you everywhere. Right, and then we get surprised that you lean on old coping mechanisms. How do you deal with this overwhelmness, this, this feeling of hopelessness, and how do you deal with that? You know, you might use, right? Just to take the pain away, like, like, he's not giving up, but he just needs to take the pain away.

Like, like, just to ease it, just a little bit. You know, he'd been doing good and he's just like, you know what? Just to just, just to ease it up just a little bit. Um, cause I got to go for some more jobs. This is that the other, and I got to just put myself in the frame of mind where I'm able to just push through this and I'm going to, right.

And you tell yourself this. And so this is what you do, right? You use you and it alleviates some of the pain and numbs you just like it, just like it always has, you feel a little bit better. You push through a little bit harder. Right. And then. You start using more and more and now you're back and now you're navigating with folks who are not going to judge you about using, right?

And so now you're, you're, you're back to where you were before you went in. And now being in those circumstances, you get. You get rearrested. This is six months. That's that six months. That's that person. That person looked at and was like, listen, he just, he was stupid. He made a bad decision. He could have did whatever he wanted to do in life.

And this is what he chose to do. Like that's the real, like when you're closer to the person and you can see their humanity and you can see what's going on in their life, that's what it actually looks like, right? And, and so. You know, I'm, I'm not saying that a person shouldn't have a judgments and expectations as far as like, you know, I understand, you know, but man, if we were just a society to give folks a little bit of space just to connect to their humanity, that's all.

That's all. That paradigm just shifts. Right there, just loving that person and then getting to see a whole nother narrative. The legal change in how Washington State dealt with juveniles charged as adults happened in David's 20th year in prison, allowing him to petition for release. You know, you have the opportunity to be released after 20 years, you can petition after 20 years.

It came out on my 20th year. I think lucky for me that I was already like 15 years in to my healing journey. Um, I made the decision long before. to be the best version of myself, right? Because the folks around me made me feel I had value to give and allow me to support them in various different ways.

And it made me feel valuable. And so I was taking every class, every program available. Um, they wouldn't let me take any educational Many college classes because I had too much time, and so I had to take what was available or self teach myself and figure out what, what were the textbooks in this class and, and then teach myself.

Through relationships, David was finding his own value and voice. The work he had been doing to heal was about to open a big door for him. Before leaving, David learned about the Freedom Project. There was an individual on the inside who, who, who was a part of it. And he was asking me, we were having a real good conversation about release, about a lot of different various topics.

And one of the things he was asking me about was about the, the Freedom Project workshop. And he was like, well, he was like, he was wondering why not many folks of color, you know, black and brown folks were going to the classes. And at the time I didn't know and I was like, well, I'll check it out. And so I went and I, so, so I was able to, to, to take it and, and I was able to really articulate what the edges were.

And a lot of it, there were cultural edges, right? It was a beautiful technology as far as nonviolent communication, but the edges were, were, were, were real and, and you can feel them in there. And, but if you weren't, that wasn't your lived experience though, you'd be oblivious. You're like, Oh, this is amazing.

This is beautiful. It's beautiful. And so I was able to relay some of those, um, some of that feedback and he suggested that. You know, I volunteer when I get released, like, you know, there might be some real value for me to lean in and, and, and, and it being more accessible to folks who are from my community, right?

You know, I had a lot of different plans about when I, upon my release. I, I did want to give back. Upon his release, David decided to visit the Freedom Project to get a closer look at the work they were doing for community. That decision led to him volunteering, and then, And then I got hired part time to be, uh, to do social media marketing, which is, which is kind of funny in a lot of ways.

Right. Because I mean, I was 24 years and so don't know much about social media. Right. But, but I do know marketing though. Right. Like I, I, I studied marketing business for about 20 years. Right. Like my time, like I, that was something that I was a really, uh, an interest area of mine when I was, When I was on the inside it and then I got hired full time and I helped support in trying to create a reentry process and explain when you began with the Freedom Project.

What were they doing exactly? So what they were doing was just workshops on the inside. So that's it. So that was and the workshop was involving nonviolent communication and mindfulness. And then your involvement was to, as you said, to address some of the edges that were prevented some of the people that were of color of actually taking advantage of.

Absolutely. And, and so there was initially about five, including me, staff there, and I was the only person of color, you know, that I think that that was my focus was. I wanted to broaden the scope, you know, as you said, like, we really deal with the edges, but really want to create. accessibility to the community that I'm from and that I care about.

And at that moment, was there a sense of finding your calling? Had that happened yet? Then that's what that was. I think, um, as I was getting reacclimated to the community, um, uh, I was, I was laying into the gaps, right? Like it was like, there was some glaring gaps. I felt like I didn't have a choice. Like this is, this is emergent.

How do we build something or create ways to better support the folks on the inside to get them home and when they come home, what are they coming home to? Right. And at that stage it was like grassroots. It was really, I mean, I was supporting folks with money out of my own pocket. Like it was really just trying to.

sit in it with folks and help support them as they navigated the process. I had a good friend of mine that got released. Four years before me and he was able to do amazing and he was really put the pieces of his life back together. And so I always say like he was my community support specialist, right?

Like he was fine. Like he was just able to give me support and able to, um, in some aspects, anticipate my needs. And that was important for me because I didn't know what I didn't know. So he was great support for me when I, uh, when I got released, what would it look like if everybody had that, right? And so that's what, uh, I aspire to do.

And first you start off with folks. I mean, folks, you know, of course, right? Such and such is getting released and you want to give them support. You want to lean in and, and then folks get to, uh, they, they, they, they hear some of the work that you're doing and they might want to plug in with you and. And like, well, you know, my cousin's getting released in two weeks and this is what he need.

And so I would tell him to call me, like, we'll figure it out. With David fully committed to the importance of relationship building, in the same way he had been doing while in prison, but now on the outside, he was making a difference, a profound difference, in the community he was from and now serving.

After one year, David became the executive director of the Freedom Project. It was a big leap for him emotionally. His critical inner voice challenged him, questioning whether he was deserving or even capable for the job. However, with encouragement from co workers and his wife, he found the courage to step forward.

You talk a lot about your healing journey. That had to be, like, beautifully healing to get that kind of confirmation that your voice, your ideas, your heart, Yeah, we're all being valued. Yes. No, it was. It was an opportunity. Uh, and I was fresh out. And so I appreciate it. I mean, it was a lot happening right in a short period of time.

Um, and at the time I had, uh, I used to explain it like, cause folks used to, cause I used to like the way I used to work and then I still work like that, but the way I was moving had some folks concerned, like, listen, like you might burn out or. And, and I used to be like, I was like, man, you got to envision, like, just imagine like I was in the starting block for 24 years and now I get my opportunity to really show up for the community and show up in the work.

And you also have to hold the anxiety of starting your life at 41, right? You know, folks is thinking about retirements coming and putting all these different pieces of your life together. And I'm like. Like, listen, I got this little brown bag with everything that I own in it. While the first year out of prison was filled with a great deal of opportunity and growth for David, it was also a time of great loss for him, one that shook him emotionally.

David shared earlier about a couple that had volunteered in the prison, both giving him empathy at a time he had lost hope. Their long term relationship with him, one of listening unconditionally. Was a profound reason why David was able to move forward with his healing Not long after David was released from prison.

He learned that the husband of this couple was really sick He got really sick. And so I went and seen him that was difficult, you know Watching somebody, you know You love and care about and respect man. He was on his deathbed thinking about me Like, like, like he was trying to make, you know, I want to make sure I'm okay.

Like that's a beautiful person. Yeah. Um, him and his wife were amazing. So that was hard for me when we went to the, the, the funeral and stuff like that. I was really, uh, I was torn up, man. It really, it re I didn't realize how, how deep it cut me. You know what I mean? Like, To have to, you know, envision a world without his support, right?

Shortly after, David's uncle, who was another important person for him during his incarceration, also passed away from illness. It was difficult, right? It was like, like, these are some of the people, like, who really showed up during my incarceration. And this was, like, the first year out, like, I, I, I lose, lose both.

And, and then, My dad who was a consistent during my incarceration that would mean he got sick and and then I never be I We had to bury him as well. So it was mixed emotions Because some of the people that I loved most weren't there with me through different aspects of this journey but it was um But yeah, so, so let me say this, that it, that first year was a, was, was a big year.

I think when I was able to, because when I became executive director, uh, I think a couple months shortly after that, I was, chose to be a part of the unlocked futures cohort. And that's an, um, so John legend started an organization called free America and they partnered up with new profit and they picked a cohort of individuals who are formerly incarcerated that were As they framed it, social entrepreneurs, and they already had one cohort.

And then when I became executive director, um, I got chosen to be on the second cohort and that was really amazing for me in the sense of like, they got to fly me out to DC, I got to meet John legend. And, and then I also got to meet. Um, Bryan Stevenson, which was really big for me because Bryan Stevenson had a part in me getting released.

And so it was, it was, it was amazing to be able to, um, thank him in person. Professionally, a lot of things were lining up for David. He was meeting people, making connections, and all the while centering relationships as the defining constant of the work and message. It was resonating. The community was seeing real progress with intention.

We got a very big initial grant for reentry, um, that really allowed for us to hire and build out our reentry fully. Now it's funded, you know, and so now we're able to really, um, show up for our community in an intentional way with resources and not with just care and system navigation. Did your staff expand?

Yes, it absolutely went up. I think it went up from five. And then I think it went up to 10, 11, 12, and then, and then inevitably went up to 26. And so, um, we were, um, piecing it together and trying to do this work. Um, trying to stay focused on our values. Um, I think as you get bigger, I think some of the issues that that happen happen in all organizations as they get bigger.

What's difficult about being a community organization navigating in a non profit industrial complex is fighting against the gravitational pool to do more dominant culture strategies. You know what I mean? Um, and so, actually, can you give me an example? Because I nodded yes, and then I was thinking to myself, wait a minute, what does that actually mean?

So what that means is, and this is something that's It's pretty popular too. And what, what, what, what happens is like, usually somebody comes in, builds an organization and they're led with their values and these values allow for them to get big and cultivate the relationships in the community. And that vision helps propel them to whatever levels of success that they're able to do.

And then when you start to get bigger, Um, folks who believe they know better, right. Believe like, well, well, that's cool. And that's great. Um, we love that. We love those values and we think that those values are amazing. Um, but we need somebody that, uh, you know, maybe with more nonprofit experience. You know, somebody we can bring in here that, that, that, you know, maybe somebody who, who, who can help scale this, who can help scale this and that's the word scale, right?

And they start to think about your organization like it's McDonald's or it's like, like it's Costco or something, right? When you are firmly situated in the nonprofit industrial complex and under and really married to their traditions and their strategies, that looks scary, right? Like, well, you can't scale doing that.

Like I hear you want to center relationships and that's a great concept. We, I believe in it too. I believe that you know what, but what does that really look like when you're running an organization with a 5 million budget, nevermind though, that that's actually what got you. To that point, right? That's what got you the funding.

That's what got you everything. That's what yes, that's what got the entire community to want to like embrace you and propel you forward. Absolutely. But that's no longer good enough. No, it's not. And, and, and, and because I think if folks are being honest, they really done it to, to, to some folks, it might look like it might look gimmicky.

It's nice, it's cool, and you know, I really appreciate what you're talking about. I love it when you be talking about healing and stuff like that. That sounds really good on paper. Like, like, we writing those grants. You should put that in there. Say it again how you said it. That sounds really good, right?

When it comes to actually implementing that into your culture and how we move, well, that really doesn't work. And that doesn't work. And well, why doesn't it work? It doesn't work because that's not how it's been done. Like, of course it hasn't been done that way. You know what I mean? A nonprofit industrial complex has been harmful to our community.

And so I think for us to blindly follow, um, what their, uh, their, their strategies would be foolish because we would just be recreating harm just like all these other nonprofits that cause harm to our community that are, that a lot of our community don't plug into even though they have resources. And you're wondering what the disconnect is.

This is what it is. It's a disconnect in values. And so, because When, when you, uh, um, operationalize values, they could be fed, they, they can be felt, and then, then you start to reach, get successes that you have. Right. But when you start to separate those, and when you start to believe that these other strategies, which.

You know what? I mean, there's a whole track record for these strategies because they've been doing this forever. You'd be like, well, these are safer and these are this. And so I think that I think that every organization has to, has to deal with that, you have to make that decision. And more likely than not, they make the decision.

To do what's been happening because the way that the, um, the system has been created, it's created like for a board to make this decision, these decisions. And a lot of times these boards aren't connected to the actual work. And so they're able to make this decision and they, they incentivize that from their head, right.

They incentivize that because like, you know, you've got to have some separation and you got to have this. And so what ends up happening is. They do make it from their head, right? They have no real investment in the work, right? Because they're not even getting paid. There's volunteer. So there's no real investment in the work.

It's just a situation where they're like, well. Um, this consultant is saying that we should do it like this, or this lawyer is saying that we should do it like that. And you're like, yeah, but this lawyer doesn't know the work either. Or this, or, or, or this consultant doesn't really understand this community work and they don't understand our community.

And so is it best now granted we can listen to their strategies. And we can synthesize and see if these strategies will work with our values and stuff like that. But without that step of synthesizing, without that step of sussing out to see what works and what doesn't work, you know what I mean, to blindly go with a playbook that's been used against our community since its inception and has caused harm, I think it's a horrible idea.

David was running into a wall. One that many non profit organizations run into as they expand their services due to early successes. As an organization begins to grow, there exists the pull to create a system to move forward with. In this transition, distance can be placed between those providing service and those receiving it.

And in that gap, the important nuances of relationship and connection can be missed. I think what's important is you wanna have all the facts when you make a decision, and the problem is if you don't have proximity, then you don't have all the facts. Things look real simple. The further you are, the further you are away from a situation, they look real simple.

All you gotta do is, you know what I mean? Like all you gotta do is this, or all you gotta do is that it's black and white. It's black and white. The further you are, you can just be like, well, this is the right thing to do, because you don't have to take all these things into consideration that it's gonna impact the decision.

Yeah. And as you get closer, the gray scale, the infinite gray begins to appear. It's so true. And I think that, um, all those things are workable. As long as folks are connected to each other's humanity. I think we could work through anything if we're connected to our humanity. If I, if I don't see yours anymore and you don't see mine, then, um, we're in trouble.

Yeah. Like if you start looking at the folks who do this work through a capitalist lens. And you see him for the position and not as people. If you don't see him for the, uh, the, the, the human beings that have to hold the secondary trauma of the community that we serve and you don't see him as real people anymore.

Yeah. Game over. Then, then I think any decision you make is going to be a bad decision and you should probably step down. And, and, and, and so I, I don't, that's the thing. And so when I talk about that gravitational pool of the nonprofit industrial complex, Then that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about every nonprofit deals with it and not even just nonprofit for profits deal with it too.

Some of these corporations have gotten to where they gotten because of their values, you know what I mean? And then they change those value, exchange those values out for somebody that I went to the Wharton school of business. In early 2024, David and a large portion of his team exited the Freedom Project and immediately started a new nonprofit called the Black Rose Collective.

We still are invested in doing this work in our values. And we believe that it's possible not only to do it in our values, but to do it well. And continue doing the work that we've always done, right? Coincidentally, that the folks that moved on, all the folks that moved on were the folks who were in the community doing the work, which makes the transition pretty easy, right?

Um, because the transition to the black rose to the black rose collective. And I think what's also pivotal about the transition is when I was at the freedom project, we built an organization. off the foundation of another organization, right? Like, so the foundation was already set when I got there. I think that being able to build something from the ground up allows for you to lay the foundation that you aspire to lay and deeply ingrained with the values That you hold, um, that you center from our communities.

When, when you look at the work that we do, helping folks transition back to the community, it's done in, uh, with our values. Relationship is our pivotal value. So everything is built up off this value of relationship. And so imagine a process when you're supporting somebody. As they transition back as relationship being the central theme of your interaction of building a relationship when you're able to cultivate and build a relationship, you're able to support somebody past the transactional aspect of they have this one need.

I need housing. I need, I need a, an Orca card or, or I need this. Like you're able to, so you're able to do an actual holistic support plan. And, and so when you're able to put complete support plan around somebody to really figure out what is it going to take to get a person from survive to thrive, right?

We want to get folks to stay in a sustainability. And, and, and so in my philosophy and our, in our values, we will help. We wanna help a few, a lot. So I would much rather take somebody from houselessness to sustainable housing. Right. And, and, and you only can support 10, 15 people instead of helping 200 people with a, a little.

You know what I mean? I want to be able to, to, to be able to, to actually step in and give support and, and fill the gaps that are present. The barriers that are in place that are allowing folks to show up in the way that they would have always showed up if, if, if, if they didn't have these, these structural barriers.

And so. So that's kind of what our values are. Our values is we're going to invest in the person that's in front of us, man. We're going to love them. We're going to care for them. We're going to give them empathy and you can't age out of a process. At the end of the day, we're in it. We're in a relationship and you don't age out of a relationship.

You don't age out of relationships. And what I've also come to understand and learn is we support the most marginalized in our community. Right. And so the, when you're, when you support the most marginalized, That's going to be a longer process of care and compassion and love. That's not going to look like no linear process, like you showed up in their life and they're going to get it all right together.

As soon as you get the, the housing and the job. No, that's not what it's going to look like. It's going to look, it's going to look a little different, but, but it's a creative line, it's a creative line. I love that framing. It's a creative line, but it's a line nonetheless, right? You we're going to get there though, right?

Because at the end of the day, as people start to heal. They're able to show up differently. And, and as people are starting to get to that, they start to get some of these barriers taken down and they start to get resourced, they're going to show up amazing. Like they're already amazing. And, and, and I think that's, what's hard for folks in nonprofit spaces to wrap their head around is like, they were amazing before you got here.

And that's proof positive too. If you take someone that's the most marginalized and with love care, being their relationship and they thrive, they move from, like you said, survive to thrive. Everybody can look at that and say, wow, it does work, right? Absolutely. Relationship does work. It does. And, and you know, what's most powerful when you take some of the most marginalized and they get resourced and you deal with the barriers and, and you feed into them.

Like. Like who they impact when they get resourced. That's the one thing that I learned about the community that we serve. Like when folks, and I'm talking about the most marginalized, like when they get supported, when they get on firm footing, rarely do they ever just go themselves, they're, they're, they're going to bring, they're going to bring five, 10 people with them.

There's folks that they're supporting. They're, they got a circle of, they got a, they got. They got aspects of the community that they have their hands on, that they're able to, to show up with their care and their love and their voice, and they're able to add value there. That's why it's hard to quantify like the actual impact that you might have.

Because the fact of the matter is when you able to be there for somebody and they get resourced, Like really, it's like an investment, right? And that return on investment is going to be on 10 or it's going to be on a hundred because who they're going to be able to help and support might be more than who you could, you ever could have.

And so, which doesn't show up easily in the metrics, right? It doesn't show up at all. And if you want to measure it, like, well, what are you really doing? Absolutely. But it comes back to your, to really your center core value, which is relationship. Which is always engaged in relationship. Which is always relationship.

And which I really love this message, not just for nonprofits, but also for community members, right? Like people always say, well, for example, around the issue of homelessness, what can I do? I mean, it's such a big issue. Be in relationship. Yeah, that's that's that's the building block of healthy community and healthy community does not accept homelessness Absolutely, and we do a lot of work with you know Racial equity and stuff like that as well, right?

And we talked about allyship Right, and it's the same thing, right? There is no allyship without relationship, right? Folks be like, well, how can I help just ask your question? Like well, how can I be supportive and how can I help? Well, I think you're thinking about it wrong. I think you want a 10 point plan on what it looks like to, to, to, to be viewed as helping.

Right. And that's a, that's a specific framing if you want to really and genuinely help. You get in relationship. That's going to tell you how to be there for me. You're going to know how to be there for me because we're in relationship. You know what I mean? And how you be there for me is going to be different than how you be there for somebody else who just might happen to look like me.

It might be the same community as me, but it might be different. And, and, and, and I think that's the best resource is relationship. Yeah, that's why we always said it, facing homelessness. You don't have to know the solution to begin. You just begin. Because the solution actually will present itself once you're in a relationship.

That's true. A person might engage somebody who is houseless and think they know what the problem is. That you're houseless and think about how simple that is that that's not true them being houseless is a symptom We're gonna talk about how do we give folks the support so that they can heal? Like how can we pull them back?

Closer to us so that they know that they cared for and that they love that you belong Like that's the problem in our society is this connection, right? That's the problem I think that and I and just to start in it But if you if they do connect Then they'll solve their own problems, right? And they can solve their own problems.

They're just not resourced in the way that they can. They didn't create the society. They didn't create the structures that make it hard for them to lean into the things that they need to meet their needs. They have to be dependent on things outside of themselves sometimes. So at the end of the day, when they're real resource, Um, they're going to be amazing.

They're going to be fine. Right. And, and I think that's something that we have to get away from, um, um, trying to help support other folks, right. Is this, um, savior ship, right? We, we have to get about that. Savior ship, this belief, like, like you saved anybody. I know, I know that feels good to, to write down and I, and it feels good to, to present that.

But at the end of the day, you have no choice in what part you play in somebody else's life. And you got to be okay with that. You got to be okay with like, listen, all you did was plant the seed. That you know what? Somebody cares about you. You know, I care. Yeah. I, you might believe that nobody in the world care about nobody, but I care about you, right?

You might be able to plant the seeds. You might be able to nurture that seed and be able to give that, give that individual necessary resources and take down a barrier to, to help them do what they would have did anyway, if they were well, you know, if, if they were good. Right. Or, or you might be the person that they allow for you to.

To pull them across the finish line, right? And, and help support them at that stage of their journey and stuff like that. And, and, and everybody wants to be that person, right? But the fact of the matter is, even with that being the case, that was them though. It was them. And also if you were doing it for the authentic reason of relationship, Any of the things that you accomplished with that person that you could put in a, in a, in, in a statistic, right?

Would be secondary to the love that you guys have, right? Like you wouldn't be parading this stuff out as important because it's, it's kind of inconsequential. It's like, you know what? It's just, that's just the trivial stuff. The really beautiful thing is like, I love this person, right? Like I love you.

Right. Like that. That's, that's, that's, That's front and center stage. If you're going to talk about anything, that's what you're going to talk about. And I'm glad you say that too, because whatever happens in your interaction, they did man. And they showed up for, and I think that's so significant to say because the nonprofit industrial complex isn't like that.

They take. Credit for what is really deserves in the person that, that actually was able to show up. And I think that's important to note because when it doesn't happen, them 20 people that that didn't happen to, when you showed up with these same resources, that same spill and all that, and it didn't happen for, think about what your spill is.

Then is your spiel. They didn't want it. They weren't serious. Like whatever, whatever type of, uh, verbiage that you might do to, to justify what you're doing. What happened in that interaction? Right. So I want you to really sit with the fact like, well, listen, I mean, chances are. If, if it didn't work out, I really want you to look at why it didn't work out with you.

You know what I'm saying? How did you show up in a way that they didn't feel like they can trust your resource or why did they stop? As opposed to they weren't ready. Right. I hate when folks in the, in the space say that they're not ready. Like somebody is not ready for a resource that they need. Right.

Like that didn't make sense. Like they don't want to eat today. They're not, they don't ready. They're not serious. Like, what does that even mean? I don't, that doesn't know, man. Like, listen, that's not the issue. The fact of the matter is like, listen, we, we need to put the focus on what we need to do better to make sure that they're able to plug in, they feel like what we have is accessible.

And what we have is something that's going to add value to their lives. We need to put the focus on there. And then the folks who are, who do come through a process and who do amazingly well, we need to remind ourselves that like, listen, they did that because they had a decision they could have not plugged in.

They could have not showed up. They could have not followed through. The fact of the matter is we need to do that because of the worst thing that the nonprofit industrial complex does is disempowering. Especially when you come from a community that's been historically marginalized and impacted by systems.

You know what I mean? When you grow, you grow up watching some of these systems, um, um, as in the process of giving your family member or your parent resources, you know what I mean? They say it's a free resource, but it's not free. It came at the cost of their dignity. Right. It came at a cost. It came at an expensive cost and you see that and you see how they respond when they come home and they're in tears or they're, they're broken up by, you know what I mean?

You see the, the, the, the, the, the impact of your support, quote unquote, right? Absolutely. And then you're curious why when this person grows up, they're reluctant to plug into your process. You know what I mean? That when you have verbiage that's similar to the verbiage that they heard, no, I'm good. You know what I mean?

If you look like you're showing up in a way that's similar than that, that it has that I've seen in the past that caused harm, I'm going to pull out. And once you have that, that, that firm understanding, that, that culturally responsive understanding of there is a right way and a wrong way to show up to a process, even if you're the one holding the resource, even if you're the gatekeeper to this resource, then, I think we'll be a better space to understand, to, to, that we'll treat people like people and, and with the care and the dignity that they, you know, that they deserve.

Is this a beautiful moment in your life? I mean, are you, are you, are you empowered by what the Black Rose Collective is doing and, and, um, and what you see for community out of this? No, I, I, I am. And I do. I think, um, the more you know, the more you realize how much those who came before you knew. You know, like this appreciation for folks who have been fighting through this work and the tables that they set for you.

I think that that has been real eye opening for me is to realize the shoulders that I'm standing on. Me coming out and so much stuff happening in such a short period of time and doing so much building and creating. I think that in doing the Black Rose Collective. I want to make sure that I am thoroughly connected to the brilliance that came before me, so that I can benefit from the lessons that they learned, and, and I think that's important.

When it's, in putting it simply, like we're a community organization, and we want to make sure That we continue to do community work in the way that it's supposed to be done and the way that our elders intended for it to be done. I think as a community, I think that we're so powerful as a community. And I think so many systems work too hard to keep us separated and divided.

So my hope is that we can continue to grow with care, with love. And move in solidarity around the issues that impact our community the most. I think if we can create a world where, where there's no need for a black rose collective, if we can do that, I think, um, we're doing the right thing. Um, and so that's my aspiration.

That's my hope. That's a beautiful hope. When you were talking, I, uh, I was visualizing, you know, this community, this black rose. collective community that's growing and building. And, and then I started thinking about like the other communities that are growing and building. And, and the beautiful thing is making each one of those strong and then visualizing them coming together.

That's some seriously good stuff. Cause I think the synergy of that is, is powerful. We're better together and I think we just got to lean into it. And so I, I'm hoping that we can continue to Deepen your relationship with all the various folks who are doing the work. And so we can create the world we aspire to live in.

I think that that's the goal. Everybody might be doing it from a different perspective, from a different angle, holding a different strategy, but we're all trying to do it. And I, and so we're going to have to do it together if we're going to do it at all. David, thank you for, for spending your time and sharing so beautifully with us.

Um, you know, I, I really appreciate you. I really appreciated the opportunity to be able to share. So I really, so thank you for making space for my voice and for my perspective and for my lived experience. I, I, I hope that, um, in, in sharing, uh, my story, um, there could be some value. I hope that what isn't taken isn't a perspective that isn't demanded, it's offered.

I know that the value of relationship is the most important value. It's going to take all of us from all our various different positionality to be able to solve the problems, the societal problems that we experience today. And, and, and so my hope is that we can stay connected around that work in that way.

It's hard to be vulnerable. It's difficult. And, um, I try my best to let folks in in the best way I could at the hopes that that might help. How should people, uh, get in touch with you and the Black Rose Collective? Well, they can get, uh, if people wanted to connect and lean in, and I hope that people do. Um, they can connect through theblackrosecollective.

org. Go online, and that's one way to lean in. Um, reach out to me personally at david at theblackrosecollective. org. Um, I know how vitally important it is for us to connect. to do this work together. As we leave our conversation with David, I wanted to invite our listeners to visit the Black Rose Collective website at theblackrosecollective.

org. You can learn much more about the work that David and his co founders are doing. You Know Me Now is produced, written, and edited by Tomasz Bernatski and me, Rex Holbein. If you enjoy this program, please let your friends know about us. Thanks, as always, for listening.