Before we get started, we'd like to let you know that this is part two of a three part episode titled People Don't Change, They Heal. If you have not already listened to part one, we recommend you go back and begin there. While it's not necessary, it will provide greater meaning to this portion of the story.

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I hope to chat with you there, as is the case with most of our episodes. This story contains potentially sensitive topics and strong language. Listener discretion is advised. I think that the inability of the system to be able to see humanity is, is a large part of the system's problem, because they want to be efficient, and they want to remain productive, and you forget that we're talking about people.

If you really look at it like all these aspects of their system are built in a way to really make you focus on the failings of an individual, but it really points to the failings of a system. They talk about. Folks need to come to the penitentiary to get rehabilitated, and you gotta ask yourself when were they ever habilitated to begin with, right?

You gotta ask yourself like, what does this even mean? What you're saying is there's something wrong with them and now we need to make it right. But the fact of the matter is like, well, you criminalized poverty. What was wrong was poverty. I believe folks at their core are all brilliant, beautiful, and amazing.

I really believe this. I believe accountability with relationship feels like love and accountability without relationship feels like abuse. And I think we have a system that wants accountability, but they don't want no relationship. They don't want to take accountability for the parts that they played in the results.

How do you come up with a solution if you're not being honest? I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to You Know Me Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community. In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of vulnerability and courage.

They share a common hope that by giving all of us a window into their world, they're opening an increased level of awareness, understanding, and compassion. And perhaps most importantly, a connection within our own community. At the end of our last episode, David, who was just 16 years old, took part in a serious crime.

His life was about to change in a profound and now unavoidable way. This pivotal moment was put into motion when he asked someone older, someone he refers to as the adult, for a ride to his girlfriend's house. Once in the car, along with others, he learns he's not going to his girlfriend's place, but rather being taken on a crime spree.

At the time, I was really angry at the adult because I was like, I just needed a ride. Like, like you put all this, you know what I'm seeing these expectations. And then at the end he was like, I'm just dropping you home. He ends up getting arrested. He ends up taking the police to all our houses. And I think that, um, them coming in and dragging me out the bed like that was pretty traumatic for my, for my family.

You know, just hearing my mom screaming was, was, was, was still in my head, right? You know what I mean? Um, but we all got, um, arrested. Then we got to the precinct and, uh, began that process of trying to deal with these circumstances. David is taken to the local precinct and then to the local juvenile facility.

I think when you first get in, everything seems foggy. You don't understand all the moving pieces, right? You, you know, you in trouble, you know, you to messed up and you know that. But initially I was in Raymond hall. So I was in juvenile when I first went in there. It's so it's, it doesn't seem real, right?

So it doesn't seem real. It all seems like kind of a dream every day. I went to sleep. I was free. And every day I woke up inside there, it was jarring. You know, when you're just waking up and out and you're like, man, maybe it was, it was just a bad dream. Right? And then you wake up and then you, you, you see the sale, the doors clanging and you, you hear it every day.

You getting jarred back to no. I remember my mom came to visit me and I remember she was just like, uh, like she was trying to explain it to me, but she was saying like, She says, I feel safer that you're here. Now, what she meant was safe for me, right? Because she used to worry about getting that phone call that I'll be dead, right?

She was being mama bear protecting you. Yeah, man. Cause that's all she cared about, man. It was, and, but it, but it let me understand, fully understand, like, How traumatizing it was for her that every time the phone ring and I'm not home, like she gonna hear something bad. I'm a kid, man. And I, it was, it was just hard for me to just emotionally dealing with that.

And I didn't handle that well. While David was held in the juvenile facility awaiting his hearing, his family hired a lawyer. We got a lawyer. We didn't have any money. So they got a lawyer who was willing to take payments and you get what you pay for. Right. I say that because he didn't even show up to my decline hearing.

And that's the hearing that they, they, they, they, they declined. They can decline you to the adult status. So they make the decision if they're going to keep you in the juvenile system or try you as an adult. And so I remember he didn't come and he sent somebody else. And dude was like, man, I just got your file today, man.

Like we don't have witnesses cause he just got the case today. And he's just like, but he was like, we'll call my dad. David's dad was the only person who would speak on David's behalf at his hearing. That was the first time I ever see my dad like really just advocate for me. Like, I've never, like, seen him really have, like, emotion like that.

And it still reverberates in my brain to this day, because his point was, he was like, when in Rome, they gonna do as the Romans do, man. You can't send this kid to the penitentiary. He was like, man, don't send this kid to the, to the joint, man. Don't do that. And so he, he just had this impassioned plea for him not to do it.

That was the first time I seen my, my, my dad get real emotional about it. At the hearing, David is declined to adult status and is transferred to the adult county jail. He is just 16 years old. So I get declined. And so they take me straight to the county, put me in segregation. What does that mean? So the whole, so they put you in the hole because you're a kid, you have two choices, stay in the hole or you can sign waiving their liability.

Meaning they're not responsible for other prisoners doing whatever. Absolutely. So my family couldn't sue. If something happened to me, this becomes my biggest thing. At the time we got to deal with the trial, all this other stuff. But this became my biggest thing. Like I got to get out the hole. And so I'm talking to my lawyer, like, man, get me out the home.

Talk to my family. And they're all like, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just because listeners and myself have no experience with the hole, like why are you trying to get out of there? This is what I would say. Some places have banned solitary confinement altogether because it's like torture. They put you into this small cell, and the isolation, it has these debilitating effects on you psychologically, and sometimes physically.

I had great vision when it came six by nine, but anything further than that was blurry because my eyes weren't accustomed to seeing past that. And so my eyesight suffered, you know what I'm saying. And you only could come out an hour a day. So you come out an hour a day, you get on the phone, uh, you can take a shower, you do everything you have to do for that hour, and then you go back in.

It does have this impact on you psychologically, especially a developing brain. And so, I couldn't articulate that to you when I was a 16 year old child. All I knew was, it felt like torture, right? Another aspect of it that some folks don't know about, especially if you ain't been in, is what we call cell warriors.

You have folks that are on in inside the hole who are banging all night. Calling you every racial epithet in the book. Won't let you sleep, and just being able to just, just, just psychological warfare. They're, they're banging on your cell door? No, they're, they're, they're banging on their door. Just making noise.

And so in there, or like if they're next to you, they're banging on your toilet. And so it bangs inside your, your, your cell. And so, right? Nightmare. As David spent time in the hole, His lawyer and parents went back and forth on how best to proceed. None of their options were good. Finally, the decision is made to sign the waiver, and David is released into the general adult population.

And I think it's hard for people to really understand, like, what it looks like up inside. Especially, you know, being young in those circumstances. And I wasn't no big guy either. You know, people look at like, like I'm an adult and this is that the other, but I'm 5, Right. You know what I mean? I'm little.

Yeah. You're not an intimidating force. No, not at all. Well, David was relieved to be out of the hole. It brought a whole new level of worry for his mother. She entered into a constant state of panic around her son's safety. It's just a lot of stuff that happens in that environment that is, um, is difficult.

And how long did you stay in the hole initially? Like, like when you were first put in there, like, are we talking weeks or months? So initially I think it might've been, uh, over a month, uh, maybe a couple of months. And so when they finally let me go though, um, They let me out. I had to sign a thing saying they're not responsible if something happened to me.

I'm overjoyed, right? You know, one oppression to another, right? You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? I'm, this is bad, but this is bad too, but I was like, man, but this was really bad. So, um, I'm taking my chances over here. Yeah. And so I, I'm, I'm overjoyed, right? I'm like, man, they, they are like, roll your stuff up.

And I go to the units and I'm in the pod with, with all these other folks in it. So I call my family and, and, you know, I'm like, yeah, they let me out. And this whole time I've been complaining and they've been like, you know, they've been worried because I'm worried. You know, like, yeah, no, absolutely. They really didn't want me out because when I told him, my mom just, she got scared and she was like, you know, stay by the police.

And I was like, what? You know, like, what are you talking about? Right. And I was realizing like, oh, you really didn't want me out. You would just placate me because I really wanted to be out. And she wanted you safe. She wanted me safe. And so so now in her mind, she's like, Yeah, he's in a hole and it's bad, but I know he's okay.

You know what I mean? And so, um, she really got really emotional about that and, and, and, and, you know, they're like, are you all right? I'm like, I'm good, man. I'm all right. I was like, yeah, I'm all right. I'm all right. But David was not all right. He was having to navigate the complexity of surviving in jail.

He found himself in a repeating cycle of fighting and then time spent in the hole, a process that went on for months. Yeah. Yeah. The prosecutor offered what David termed a snitch plea, one that would require him to testify against someone else in exchange for less time. David would have none of it. And I remember my dad was so mad at me, man.

My parents were so mad at me. Why are you so loyal? You know, he was like, man, you stupid. That don't make no sense. And I remember he was kind of going in on me. And I'm a kid, right? I'm just, I'm a kid, but I was just like, I was like, I'm, I was like, man, I'm not going to be the reason why somebody else is locked up.

Was it all ethical in that sense? Or was it also fear? Like, if you snitched, would you also be a target? Well, you would be. But, um, I think, you know. Maybe all that plays into it. Um, but I think the one thing that I've, I found out about myself through all these circumstances, I'm pretty principled though, if I think it's wrong, it's wrong.

If I think it's right, it's right. Like, like, um, and I'll stand in it and, and, and deal with the ramifications of it. And, and, and, and so that was, it was crazy, the conversation, because they were really mad. Like, they was really mad because the lawyer went and told him, like, Listen, I'm trying to tell him and he ain't going for it.

And, I was respectful. I didn't, I was just like, I can't. I'm sorry. In September of that year, David's case went to trial. A guilty verdict was returned. The real shock washed over him when he heard the amount of time he was being sentenced for. So, you get two hundred and forty months for this count. Two hundred and something months for this.

And, He's just saying months and then this, this, this many months and a hundred months for that. And I'm like, and I'm looking at my lawyer, like, like how much time is that? And, and I remember it. I'll never forget it. He just wrote 60 on a piece of paper and just wrote and slid it to me. And I was like, 60 what?

What? Yeah, like 60 years.

It was jarring. And, and, and what's crazy is like when people report on it, like in the paper or whatever, they, when they report on it, they always say, and I noticed that they still do this. They'll be like, um, they'll like, well, and he was emotionless. Right. And then they'll use this type of terminology.

I'm like, you know, what's crazy is I think I was, I'm as socialized not to show that level of emotion. Right. And so I'm sitting there stuck and I'm confused and I can't really conceptualize what just happened. But if you would've just watched me 10 minutes later, when they took me back to the thing, man, I'm a little kid, man, I'm just bawling and I'm crying.

And I'm like, it's over. You know what I mean? That's why I kept saying, I'm like, man, it's over, man, it's over. Yeah. I just kept repeating it. Like it's really over man. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, man, like, um, having to consider spending the rest of your life in the penitentiary is like, you ever have a moment where your life flashed before your eyes?

It's like, like something scary happened and your life flash. It's like that, except it's in super slow motion, man. You've seen it all flash. And it's just like, so it's not a moment. It's years and, and you, you just sit there and you, you're, you're, you're like, it's over. And then you thinking about my peers or some are going to prom and some are, you know what I'm saying?

Or whatever the case and you're like, that's, that's how it hit me when you shared it that way is that it's like, it's right, it's over right at the point when it feels that all should be beginning. Yeah. It's almost like I'm on the runway to take off with my life. And suddenly you're yanked off and say, Oh, you're not going to get to do that.

No, it's over. And, and, and you can't forget to the time period. So this is early nineties. Right. And so this is when, um, Hillary Clinton is calling us super predators. And this is when the legislation adult time for adult crime is, is, is that that's the politics were at the time. I was one of the last folks.

To get a decline hearing they, after that, that June they passed, it was auto decline. If you're a certain age and you commit a certain offense, then you're auto declined. So you don't even get a hearing. So they just took a bad system and made it worse. And so, uh, and so there was a lot of kids in the system at the time, a lot of black and brown kids in the system at the time.

And they're all getting what we call football numbers, you know, big numbers. And so folks weren't coming in with four or five years. So folks had 40, 50, 60. They were giving them away like candy. Um, they all sent this all through the same institution. It was Columbay at the time. If you're a young and affiliated, that's where they're sending you.

I know I'm seeing all these guys, guys I was in school with, you know what I mean? We all going to the system, we all going, we all going, and he got 99 years, and all these folks. that you know. Your community and. Yeah, and we all going, we all, and we're getting a lot of time, not a little, a lot of time. After sentencing, David is transferred to Washington Correction Center in Shelton, Washington.

You first go to Shelton, you know, they call the R units, that's what they call it. You get processed, the receiving unit, and this is where you get processed through. And so you go there and. That's when you first come off the chain and that's when they, uh, you're supposed to cut off all your facial hair and stuff like that, but I didn't have any.

But, um, You're 16. I'm 16. You know, I had a little peach fuzz and they weren't tripping off the peach fuzz. So, then you have to, they line everybody up and you all have to take a shower. So you're all lined up together, all naked, you're lined up together. So any sense of decency, all that stuff's out the window.

This is where the dehumanizing starts. And you, you shower. They give you a shower roll. You have to take a pit stop and say, mental health talk to you, but they don't really talk to you. They just ask you if you're feeling like you're gonna hurt yourself. It's not a real conversation. You know what I mean?

I don't know how many people are, who come through are saying, yeah, I think I am. I'm feeling like I might hurt myself. And able to get support. I know there's some folks who might, but majority of folks are gonna be like, nah, I'm good. And then, um, that's when they give you your DLC number. And I remember they told you, like, like, don't forget it.

And I remember, first time they told it to me, I ain't never forgot it. I felt like it was tattooed on my soul. That's how I felt at the time. And so, um, so they do that. You process, you win, and now you gotta deal with the politics. Now you're in. On the inside, the pecking order is quickly established. Some of the inmates knew David.

Wait, I'm, I'm going to rephrase what I just said, taking out the word inmates. David reminded me that labeling language is dehumanizing and that we should use people first language. I really appreciate his attention and sensitivity to this. So, here goes again. On the inside, the pecking order is quickly established.

Some of the people incarcerated at that time knew David from his membership in the power group. While this provided some advantages, In that it gave him connections. It was still up to him at the age of 16 to navigate all of the dynamics of being on the inside, learning how to interact in this new adult world.

One such interaction was meeting up with the man who drove the car the night of his arrest. The person David referred to as the adult, the exchange led to a fight and resulted in more time in the hole. After that, they were kept away from each other. David was quickly realizing that all the rules and the consequences were changing.

This was going to be his new life. When I was in Shelton, this is when I cut everybody off, right? I, I just wasn't calling, I wasn't calling home, I wasn't writing, I wasn't doing anything. And I wrote, um, my girl at the time, my wife now, I wrote her and I was like, man, go do your thing. I was like, man, we kids, man.

What are we going to do for each other? Let's be honest, man. And I got to go do this time. You got to live your life, you know, and that was hard for me to do. Um, cause I felt like giving up on our relationship or her was like giving up on me. You know what I mean? Cause she represented everything that was good in me and everything to me.

I didn't know what it was going to look like to go in here and be that wolf. It was like, I had to put this mask on. You were conscious of that. Like that, that, that would, would make you vulnerable. She had a whole life, man. Like, like, like, um, what does that, does that even really look like? Man, I don't I don't wish that on anybody.

David began isolating himself. He not only cut off communications with his girlfriend, but also his entire family. Early on, he had been told he had two choices on the inside to be either a wolf or a sheep. To survive, he knew he had to be a wolf. Staying emotionally connected to his girlfriend would have made him vulnerable, would have made it difficult to be that wolf.

One day, the COs came to my door, racked my door and came, got me in. They took me to the counselor's office. I'm confused. At first I'm thinking I'm going to the hole. And then, um, they take me to the office, and then the counselor's like, like, why aren't you calling home? And I'm sitting there so confused.

Like, how do you know? That I'm not calling home. I ain't trying to be a burden, you know, um, you know, I got this, I got this time to do, and they got their lives to live. Right. They call my parents right there and then give me the phone. That's when my dad was off first. He's all concerned. Like, are you okay?

What's going on? And then, and then once he knew I was okay, then he got mad. Oh, you ain't calling for like, what can I do? You know what I mean? I don't care what you going through. You're going to call once a week. You know what I mean? If you ain't going to do it for me, do it for your mama. You know, that was another moment where he was doing it through aggression.

But I can feel the love, though, that phone call that love felt from his father. Was very important to David. From that point on, he called his family weekly without fail. You have a 20 minute call and you're paying for 20 minutes. So you're having actual conversations for 20 minutes, man. And I'm having actual conversations with, with, with somebody that I realized I really didn't ever connected to like that.

You know what I mean? I really benefited. I think we both benefited. Like we really cultivated a real relationship. You know, and I got to really know him as, as a human being and, and, and, and be able to connect to his humanity. And I think that that was a gift. I think that that's something that I don't know if we talk about enough.

Um, we always talking about, uh, we want somebody to love us, right. But do we ever consider. Are you allowing people to love you? And like, how many of us really push people away because we're uncomfortable with the intimacy and with the closeness? Like how many of us as a knee jerk reaction, because of what we've been through, make sure folks stay at bay, even though we really want closeness.

Like, like, I think that, that, that that's some of the things that we need to heal from, and that's some things that I needed to heal. And as I started to heal, I was able to see clearly what he was doing. Um, you know, and how he was really trying to show up. Over the years, David was transferred to Clallam Bay, Walla Walla, McNeil Island, Monroe, Coyote Ridge, and Airway Heights prison facilities, all located in Washington State.

David's healing journey began during his incarceration. He also made it a priority to educate himself. They wouldn't let me take classes, conventional classes, college classes. David explains that higher education was off limits because his sentence amounted to life in prison. In other words, the system was not willing to invest resources in him when he would not be re entering society.

It wasn't enough that he wanted to better himself. But what you could have access to is some of the stuff like in mental health. I got fascinated with, uh, psychology. You know, my simple math at the time is like, I can measure it up against me. And so I got really deep into that and that was really helpful.

But there's one thing having the information, right? And I really believe this. I believe this now we're social creatures, man. We're social being just like with everything else. The society makes you think everything's individual and they make you think healing is individual. And they think that you got to go sit in the corner and figure it out and heal.

And I really believe that you need community to heal. Like it's the most healing thing on the planet when somebody else gives you empathy. And it kind of makes sense when you think about it, right? Because that inner voice that you have is probably the worst critic on the planet. I mean, the way that they talk to you is probably nobody else could talk to you in the world.

100%. Yeah. But that voice inside you is the most disparaging and the most like, like, and the, the, the thing that, that, that, That that inner voice has that other people don't is it has proximity and it knows everything, right? So it knows where to cut it knows all the pressure points. Yes. Yeah, that critical voice and it uses them all right?

And so I think um, if you're just alone with that like that's it's it'll be hard to heal but When you have a contrary voice, when you have somebody giving you empathy and compassion and care, when you have somebody filling your cup up with, with truths, I don't mean just mean positive affirmations, like you telling you good things.

No, but truths. David leaned into relationships. He was forming a new community, a place where he could find the truths and the healing he was looking for. So did you find that in, you know, other, uh, incarcerated individuals, or from counseling, or where did you find that inside? So like, like I was saying about, um, my dad, my dad got pretty aggressive, but he was just like, but it was really care.

Like, he was really like, he was worried about how I was doing. And then he was, he wanted me to call because it mattered that we stay connected and that he know that we okay, that I'm okay and all that other stuff. Right. So I heard it as care. So in that regard, it's like, On the inside, like we don't talk like that, but you could feel care.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, somebody making sure like, man, make sure, you know, cracking the soup in half. Like we don't got nothing, but he cracked the soup in half so you can get half, man. That's care. And saying, I love you, man. Yeah. That's what it's saying. Even though he's saying like, man, I love you, man.

Here's the, they're not, we're not talking like that, but you can feel the care. Right. And so I think that helps. Right. That's that helps to feel your cup. But, I think, um, what also helped me was, um, there was these, these two folks, this couple, um, this married couple, the McBees, man, these are some of the most amazing folks on the planet.

And, uh, they just gave me empathy. They would just make space and, and, and they would really be engaged and they would just, um, make me feel valued. I didn't have a release date. I was in my trauma, just showed me empathy. Right. And it was transformative. They gave me permission to heal. I needed permission because I didn't believe I deserved healing.

I didn't believe I deserved anything good in this world. Right. I believed what the messaging was telling me. I believed it. So every bad thing that you might want to attribute to me, I believe that too. You took it all on. Yes. I believed it. Like I didn't believe I was worth living. I didn't believe I was worth, I took up space.

Like I honestly believed I wouldn't live past 21 and I thought that was okay. Right? Like if a kid told me that now, man, I'd be heartbroken. Like at the end of the day, man, all I needed as a child was love and that's all we all need. And so people be asking about the 10 point plan for that. I'm like, there ain't no 10 point plan in helping somebody feel valued.

It's, it's, it's complicated. It's difficult. You got to be present. You know what I mean? It's going to look different for every person, but the fact of the matter is them being able to do that for me in that moment. Gave me permission to heal and and I want folks to really think about that. Um, when you've caused harm And you come from a lot of trauma and our internal voices are harder on us than anybody else on the planet You don't believe you deserve To be able to heal you don't think you deserve to be happy.

You don't think you deserve Anything this is what society's telling you and you've internalized that and you start to believe that right? And then you get some beautiful people come along and they give you permission to heal that that's you're worth loving Um, and that they love you If all you've seen was black crows, you can make the assumption that all crows are black.

You didn't see a thousand black crows Tens of thousands in your lifetime. You're like, all crows are black. But if all you see is one white crow, you don't have to see a thousand or ten thousand. You just got to see one. You see one white crow, you know all crows ain't black. And I like to use that analogy as the representation of empathy.

When somebody gives you empathy, and you see it, and you feel it, then you can't unsee it. Yeah, and that provides hope. Yes, and so you know that it's real. David was given another moment of hope when one of his good friends asked him to be a godparent to his daughter. And then one of my good friends got released.

And he had a daughter and he made me the goddaughter and that was powerful for me. I didn't have kids at the time. And so it was like, um, I was engaged. Like I was, I was part of the family though. They made me feel a part of, yeah, you weren't being shunned. Yeah, man. But I, I really feel like a real god parent, right?

Like, like, like, you know what I mean? Like the stuff that we were able to do in there for your kids. I was able to do with my goddaughter, man. And it was powerful for me, man. And, and, and, and the thought of this little girl growing up in this world, I want to have. I want to, I want to have value to be able to give her when she need me.

There's all these contributing factors that go into fueling you on your healing journey and all these things did. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it, I mean, you, you kind of won the Willy Wonka ticket, right? In a sense of getting that out of prison. Unless you tell me that no, a lot of people are. in prison.

What's your, what, what is your view? Because I'll tell you this, like somebody that's never been to prison. My view is that we're just locking people up and we're, and we're not, and we're not spending a nickel on rehabilitation. They're not. I want to be real clear about this. I'm not who I am because of the penitentiary, right?

Some people that's their takeaway. And, um, mine's is I was able to heal and grow into the person I am today. In spite of the penitentiary, if I would have had love care and resources, then the person you see in front of you would be here, maybe some of my analogies would be different, some aspects of my story would be different.

But, but the fact of the matter is, that's what I was missing. And so, there are some folks who are able to, to, to, to do some of this work in spite of horrific circumstances. While David is serving his life sentence, the science community is increasing its understanding of the developing juvenile brain. An understanding that will ultimately have an impact on David's prison sentence.

In the early 2000, a series of legal cases changed the way the United States incarcerated youth. Thanks to the juvenile brain science, I think it was an initial case where a person was mentally challenged, and they were trying to kill them due to death penalty, and they made the argument that their brain isn't fully developed, so it's cruel and unusual punishment to kill them for their actions.

And so, they won that. And then, through the research, They're like, well, wait a second. If it's cruel and unusual punishment to kill somebody because their brain isn't fully developed, well, kids brains aren't fully developed. You know what I mean? And we're, we're one of the few places in the world that's still, you can still put a kid to death.

And so it started off with, um, the death penalty. Right. And then it went to life without, because the verbiage is still the same. Like, well, what's wrong with. Putting somebody to death because their brain isn't fully developed. Well, isn't life the same thing? Could, could you take away their whole life for something that they did when their brain isn't fully developed?

And so, um, there was this domino effect. And at some point, did your attorney come to you and say, Hey, there's this movement? So, so, uh, and by attorney, you mean. Illegal beagles on the inside. Yes. You know what I mean? Like folks on the inside being like, man, listen, like, um, I know we looking at these developments and stuff like that, man, they just ruled this, this is that and the other, that might have an impact.

And so I started studying it and I started looking at, I started looking at all the research, was healing for me to read the research, you know, because there was a lot of shame and that, that inner voice that we say that's always harder on ourselves than anybody else could be. The research was speaking to that voice.

Yes. It was real vicious to me about how I showed up and what I didn't do. You know what I mean? If you didn't wanna be there, why were you? Why didn't you stop it? Why didn't you do this, this, that, and the other? You know what I mean? And so I started, I started to read that and I started seeing as the case law started to change.

So then when Bryan Stevenson won in the Supreme Court and they say that it is cruel and unusual punishment to give a child life without the opportunity of being redeemed. That was, that was it. So now that's the U. S. Supreme Court. So what that means is the whole country was going to have to make sense.

That was the highest precedent. Right. And so folks will be able to start filing based on that. A lot of different states took different strategies on how to make it fit with the law. Ours was the 50 64 bill, right? And so would that allow for us to petition for our release after 20 years? And at that time you had already done 20.

The year it went out, I did 20. The year. So it was like, so it was just I qualify. I still didn't believe it though. I said, man, there ain't no way they gonna let me go. You know what I mean? That inner voice, right? Telling you, like, man, they ain't about to let you go. Like, they gonna let some guys go. They ain't gonna let you go.

Because when I first came in the system, like, you know, I got in a lot of fights and all of this stuff. And I was just like, man, they not about to let me go, man. Come to find out though, it ended up working in my favor because it showed them contrast, you know what I mean? Like I couldn't stay out of a fight and then miraculously in 03.

I didn't get in any fights. I didn't get in fractions or nothing. And I took every class available to me. The way I showed up was 180 degree turn, right? Yeah. You showed growth and they were so fascinated by that. Cause they're like, wow. Like what happened in this in oh three. Oh, well, a couple of things happened in 03.

I turned 25 brain maturation. Right? So in that half a second that you have from being impulsive and all this other stuff makes all the difference in the world, right? But also what also happened in 03 is I got sent to McNeil Island when it was still open, right? I wasn't in a war zone. You know what I mean?

My whole time used to be, we've been in war zones. I've been in, I went to Collin Bay, they used to call it Gladiator School when I first went there. You know what I mean? And it was. And then, and then I went to Walla Walla, um, yeah, um, back in the 90s. Like, so, so they were, um, these were war zones. It feels like that shouldn't have been a mystery to them.

They know those names, the, the state of those, uh, prisons. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Like, you put me in a war zone and you mad that I'm fighting and then in that, in Walla Walla, they tell you, like, listen, It don't matter if you defend yourself, you better, you better huddle up in the fetal position and wait for help to get there.

Are you getting found guilty of fighting? And so lucky for me, I got to a place that wasn't a war zone. I was able to really get on my healing journey and get a, and, and, and, and able to grow and heal in the, in, in, in a way that were the person you see in front of you today is who I was in there. Right.

The prospect of David getting released when he believed his life would be lived out in prison. was beyond beautiful for him. He was getting an unimaginable second chance. Those feelings though were also joined by survivor's guilt. He had created a family on the inside and was having a hard time seeing others who would not get the same opportunity.

I was dealing with my survivor's remorse. I don't know if folks know what that feels like to feel like you, you survived something and you're So many other people you love did it When I first found out about the change in the law the 50 64 bill that allowed for my release I remember it was me and my my good friend Eugene.

I remember I was so excited He was excited too, but he was kind of cautious like We'll see, man. I don't know. And then when we, uh, I, we, we, we submitted, I got it back and I was like, man, look, man. I was like, you know, I got my hearing. I was like, and he also had 20 years, but he had more to me. Okay. He's been down longer than I have, but what I didn't realize he was eligible.

In other words. Yes, he was absolutely. Well, we thought he was eligible, but he was like a couple months into 18. He had just turned 18. And so he wasn't eligible. Man, that was devastating, right? Because I'm happy about my opportunity, man. But I couldn't lay in that. I could see the look on his face. I just asked him like, man, did you get yours?

And he was like, he nodded and he just shook his head. Like no. So it was that was difficult for me, right? I know who he was and just the thought that because he was a couple months into being 18. That's the difference. He was exempt for that reason. Yeah, that's the difference. You know, I knew his brilliance and that's just like a lot of folks on the inside.

Like, you know, these guys, brilliance, like you don't walk the yard with them. You just seen how they showed up in all these different difficult situations. And you know what they're going to do if they're given the opportunity, like these guys are brilliant. Right. But just like Eugene, at the end of the day, it's a couple months over 18, one reason or another why they don't get their opportunity, um, to be able to, uh, pour their brilliance into the community.

Cause I always say that, like, you know, it'd be great for them to get out. Yeah. But we need them out here. Like we, like, like the world is missing something. We're less for it. Yes. When folks aren't out here in the world with us, right. And able to be, uh, their brilliance. And I'm, I appreciate the fact that some folks are getting released now and they're seeing that now they're seeing all these amazing folks.

And, and these aren't folks who are just like this just because they got released a year, two, three, four, five years ago, like these, like these guys were like that for 10, 20 years. Like they've always been this way. Yeah. Yeah, I've had the same experience meeting people that are homeless, right, like just blown away by like, Wow, I can't believe you know how to do that.

Or you did what and and you're doing what? Right. And while you're suffering through living without basic needs, which is all the more unfathomable, right? It is. And I think that's the sad part too, right? Is there's a lot of overlap. Right. And we talk about houselessness and we talk about, um, incarceration and we talk about all these mental health.

We talk about all these different things, right? And we see that they're all overlapped. Like, like a lot of times we're talking about the same community. And so, you know, and that's the reality, right? When we understand how, how all these, you know, These systems are all the same in that regard, like, like we, we can't just focus on one and think like anything's going to change.

The petition process that David was required to go through for his release from prison required multiple steps that included psychological evaluations and a series of classes. It also required that David would gradually go to lower custody levels, ending with going to camp and then work release. That process took an additional four years.

I was like, man, listen, man, like I thought I was going to die in here. You know what I mean? So, like, a couple classes, a couple, what's a couple years of, of, of, of stuff like that. That was my mindset at the time. I was like, nothing was gonna shake me off my gratitude. Nothing. Over the years, while David was in prison, he lost touch with his girlfriend.

She married, then later divorced. Despite all the complexity and impossibility of holding that relationship together, David never took her off his visitor list. So my wife, me and my wife, my wife now, but we were on and off. She would come back and we would, we would be back on. And then, and then, you know, when the weight of it hit again, and there's like, man, like, I don't, you know what I mean?

It started to get tougher and stuff like that. And I tried to, I couldn't expect it. It wouldn't be that. I know. Absolutely. How could it not? No, most definitely. And, and, and I tried to, um, make it as, um, easy as possible to. I never made her feel bad about not being able to, you know what I mean? I understood.

Like, listen, I understood. The joy that she must have experienced hearing that you were coming out. Well, she didn't know. Okay. So, so what happened was we weren't together. So it was like the last time I talked to her before I got released was 2007. Okay. And I got released in 2017. Oh, wow. So that's like 10 years, right?

Um, I was in work release. And then I went to my dad's house. Just so happens I got my first social, which we were allowed to leave for a period of time from, from work release, um, it was on my birthday. And a social is you get to do an outing or something, go out to the community. And, and, and so I went to my dad's house and we took a group, a picture, you know, in front of the cake, and then they posted it on Facebook and then she saw it and she was like, what, somebody Photoshop him in, right, right.

And I think she was like, This looks like a house that he's in, right? Like it's so, and then she reached out to, to, to, to, to my, um, to my family and stuff like that. And, um, and then, um, one, the next, when I was at another social at their house, I was cutting the grass, I was doing something and they gave me the phone and she was on the phone and I was like, like, man, it was like, you know, it was like, we never left.

Right. I think, um, you know, we, uh, we got back together, we moved to Auburn. And so when I got released, released, that's where I came to. And then that next April we got married. Yeah, man. I, and I think, you know, she, she got a beautiful spirit and, and, um, she was always the first person that ever saw me though.

So what needs to change in the prison system? You've been through it. You're out on the other side. You're also doing work. That's about healing. And you look back at all the folks that are inside still, what, what needs to change? Like what, if you could, you know, magic wand and you wave it over the whole magic wanding it, my answer is going to be different than What do we need to do now?

And, and, and, okay, let me rephrase my question. What do we need to do now? No, but I like the magic wand though. I'll start there and I'll end and I'll end there because the magic wand is. You'd have to dismantle the, it all has to go. This stuff doesn't work. Like, this doesn't work at all. I just want you to look at it, every metric, every, everything that, all your stopping frisks, and, and, and all your, your death penalty, and, and all your adult time for adult crime, three strikes, all of it doesn't work.

The crime didn't go down because of these things. But what did happen is, you, you incarcerated a whole community. I think a third of everybody in this country knows somebody who's impacted. Like, like we talk about those who have been inside, but we don't talk about the, the impacts are further than the people who've been inside because people love those people.

They have kids or they are somebody's kid. Like we were incarcerating our own nation and our own kids. So, so I think by every metric, it's not making it safer at every metric. It's not helping because if what we want is, is, is, is, is safer streets. If, if what we want is a society where some of these things don't happen, what we're doing doesn't work.

Um, what does work is love, care, compassion, empathy, and resources. Um, the recidivism rate drops immensely when a person has safe housing. Think about that, man. That's not no magic program. That's not no magic wand. That's, that's something we all need. And I just want to, and I know you understand this intimately, but.

Like when a person doesn't have safe housing, like, like I'll say it like this. When people are about to get released and they don't have housing, it takes all the oxygen out the room. They can't have any other conversation about what else they might need to do because that's glaring. That's humongous. It takes all the oxygen out.

Job number one. Yeah. Get a place to live. Folks sometimes look at the work that we do and they think that we got a magic wand, right? Like we do something special, but it's not really special. It's, it's you give somebody care, love and compassion and you, and you give them resources. Like it's nothing special.

It's just what we all need. You know what I mean? It's just that there's segments of a population that aren't getting that and even some of these Organizations that profess to help aren't doing so in a way with care and compassion. They're doing it in a transactional fashion Just like any of these systems You know what I mean?

You need something from us. Well, what I need you to act right? I need you to show up a certain way what I need from you is this Oh, and if you don't you don't want it bad enough If you don't if you don't then it's all about you and it's like no No, no, no. No, listen um I remember I was telling somebody in doc that when they were talking about well folks or they're supposed to help them with housing But these folks don't want it.

I said no listen, I said if somebody doesn't want something that's an essential need That's either because they don't trust the resource Or they don't trust you. They don't got nothing to do with their need. I don't got nothing to do with how bad they want it. Not having housing, right. Is basically suffering and nobody chooses suffering, right?

So there's, there's, if somebody says, no, I don't want to accept that housing, it means you haven't presented it in a way that is a true option for them. Absolutely. And I wish everybody was connected to that, right? Like connected to the understanding of why people don't, Uh, lean into things that you think they need, you know what I mean?

And that's probably because you don't know what they need. You know what I'm saying? To you, housing is housing, but that's not true. To you, jobs are jobs. We should be able to take any job. Well, how do you know they can physically do the job? How do you know, like, you know, they've been, they may did the walkthrough and, and, and, and it's not conducive to them being successful.

Maybe, you know what I'm saying? Like. That's why we look for great fits. That's why we were in a deep relationship with resources, with, with housing resources and with folks so that we can find with, with, with employers so that we'll know what great fits are like this person would be great in this great fit for them.

And this is that here, not that, well, you need a job, so you should be willing to work anywhere. And you only know the great fit. That's it. And that's why relationship is the most important aspect of any type of support you give somebody. That's why being from the community you serve is such a powerful asset because these aren't just folks you're supporting.

These are your cousins and your nephews and this is your, uh, uh, your, your, your good friends community. Child. And this is your, you know what I mean? Your other friends, uh, uncle. Yeah. And so it's like extended family. Yeah. And so when you look at it from that lens, like what does it look like not to have a relationship?

I don't understand. Like, and I, and I always want to talk about new history lesson about the nonprofit space. It came out of, um, folks, predominantly white women who helicoptered in with their strategies and solutions and created nonprofits to fulfill a need really to offset. From their perspective, offsetting the disparities in our society from capitalism, right?

And so when you look at it now, that's still here. You don't want relationships because, uh, because if you have relationships, you won't have boundaries. And, and, and, and I think that that's the problem. Like, like, like, listen, we can make the assessment of what you believe the issue is, but Why can't you have a relationship and have boundaries?

I don't understand that because boundaries are really difficult. Yes. And, and the ability to say no in a beautiful, compassionate way is very difficult. And, and I think people struggle with that, right? So what they do is they just don't even go there. Yes. And they do it. And because like you said, It's easier.

It's easier not to go there. And this system is about ease. The system is about productivity. The system is about the bottom line and you want to be able to get in, get out, get in and get out and get the grant report made in a way that gets you more funding. I think, and that's the problem. I think that they take the humanity out of the process.

The fact of the matter is if you, you just come in and if you helicopter in and helicopter out, you might be giving them a resource. You might, you might give them housing. You might give them a little food. You might give them that, but what you won't give them is what they need. You don't get a sense of safety by just getting housing.

You don't get a sense of safety by just getting employment. You know what I'm saying? You get a sense of safety by getting, having community, having, having a net that works, right? Having, having a supportive community around you. That's going to hold you and love you. And so, you know, when it all goes away.

Somebody's going to be there to hold you up. That's where you feel get safety from. You don't get it from just you handed me this resource with all of these checking these boxes and the expectation is like, no man, like, like, listen, that's, and that's where you're disconnected about the work that we're actually here to do.

I think that the inability of the system to be able to see humanity is, is a large part of the systems problem. Cause they want to be efficient and they want to remain productive. And then you forget that we're talking about people. If you really look at it, all these aspects of their system are built in a way to really make you focus on the failings of an individual, but it really points to the failings of a system.

They talk about, folks need to come to the penitentiary to get rehabilitated. And you gotta ask yourself, when were they ever habilitated to begin with, right? You gotta ask yourself, like, what does this even mean? What you're saying is there's something wrong with them, and now we need to make it right.

But the fact of the matter is, like, well you criminalized poverty. What was wrong was poverty. I believe folks at their core are all brilliant, beautiful, and amazing. Now what impacts on how they show up is how we've been socialized and our trauma. There's some things that we show up because we've been socialized and show up this way.

There's other ways that we show up because our trauma has a seat at the table. And there's other ways that we show up because we're not resourced. I really believe this. I believe accountability with relationship feels like love. And accountability without relationship feels like abuse. And I think we have a system that wants accountability, but they don't want no relationship.

They don't want to take accountability for the parts that they played in the results. How do you come up with a solution if you're not being honest? You know what I mean? If you're playing a part in, in these results, but you don't want to own your parts that you play, then you're never going to heal it.

You're never going to heal it. And your strategy is to demonize. The person as an individual and, and, and you built a whole systems around this line of thinking, like it's their fault, their fault that they're poor. It's their fault that they're, that, that, that they're struggling. Everybody I know in the penitentiary, man, everybody I know come from trauma.

Everybody living homeless on the streets come from trauma. How do we cultivate a society that believes that? Some people are victims and other people aren't. And this is what I appreciate about Brian Stevenson. He does amazing work. Um, aside from arguing in the U S Supreme court, he always helps support folks that were on death row.

And, and as far as with the movement in general, as far as bringing people back to humanity, liking our compassion is I really respect the work that he does. Um, but they asked him one time it was a reporter and they asked him like, yeah, but what about the victims? And he said, but they're all victims. See, that's the difference though.

It's like, I want to support all the victims, not just some of them. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, so they're no longer a victim of, of, of, of abuse and all the other things that they suffered in their life because they committed a crime. They're no longer a victim anymore. Like they lost their right to be a victim.

But what if you, you knew that what they went through contributed to why they showed up this way to begin with? Like, like, we talking about people. I always say, nobody that feels loved and happy with their life and in love with themselves wakes up in the morning and says, I'm, I'm going to, today I'm going to go out and fuck some people up.

Nobody. Like, nobody does that. Like, like, when people are doing, doing things they shouldn't be doing. You can, you can just trail back further in their history and find all of the lined up things that, that happened to them, right, and got them to that moment. It's like the person that has road rage and is, is pissed off.

They're not pissed off at you. Yeah. They're unloading a bunch of other stuff that they've got stored up, right? Just to piggyback on that, folks that commit violence is one of the lower recidivism rates. Yeah. And some people will point to that as folks aging out, right? Like, well, that's because they do a lot more time and they age out.

But what they don't make space for is how traumatic it is to do harm. They don't realize that some of these folks Are still having nightmares and are still dealing with the ramifications of what they done. And so they don't realize how traumatic it was for them to experience. Whatever created the circumstance that made whatever was possible.

What I'm saying is it's not just about aging out all the stuff that had to line up to make this a possibility. All that stuff lined up the chances that all this stuff will line up again is not likely. And, recidivism rates. Um, If we're going to actually come up with strategies and solutions, we have to be honest and we have to set our biases down.

You know what I mean? And we have to be honest about what your goals are. Your goal is you and you're not saying it out loud, but you really feel like. We should have a punitive system because it's about punishment. Like you think that somebody did something wrong and they should be forever punished. And, and then if you have a real conversation about you about, okay, well, what does that look like?

Is there an end point to this punishment? And this is that the other, it starts to get blurry. Yeah. Do you, I mean, ultimately do you just want to throw them away? And I think that's what it is. I think we live in a society where a lot of people feel thrown away and they're, and, and, and, and, and, and really don't mind other people being thrown away.

So I think we live in a world where people believe that being thrown away is just a way of life. And so you navigate in a way where you don't want to be one of the ones thrown I think that's what it is and I think that's what the movement is. I don't want, I don't think anybody should be thrown away.

You know what I mean? I don't think that dude that's doing white collar crime and doing that stuff and the person that, who, who, who, who is showing up how they're showing up because they're impoverished and they're trying to put food on the table. I don't think nobody should be thrown away. I think we all benefit.

When folks are starting to heal and they can show up with their gifts. On the next episode of You Know Me Now, I discuss with David his important community building work formerly as the Executive Director of the Freedom Project and now currently as the Director of Vision and Values at the Black Rose Collective.

You Know Me Now is produced, written, and edited by Tomas Bernatsky and me, Rex Holbein. We would like to thank David for taking the time to speak so very beautifully with us. You Know Me Now is 100 percent supported by listeners and readers just like you. If you find our work meaningful, then please consider ongoing support via Patreon, or a one time donation via Venmo or PayPal.

You can find those links on our website. We also have a very active Facebook page where you can join in on the conversation. I hope to chat with you there. Thanks as always for listening.